Can there be Salvation Outside of the Church?
July 19, 2012 36 Comments
Fr Alexander Lucie-Smith writes:
What happens to someone who is a good person but not a practising Christian? That was the second question put by my former parishioner, which I mentioned in the last post.
This is a huge question, and one that has vexed theologians for a long time. It is also the one question that always commands immense attention whenever it comes up in discussions about the faith in a parish setting.
I do not want to go into the history of the question, or get into a footnote heavy discussion, but rather to provide a useful answer for the here and now.
First of all, there are a lot of good people about, people who never go to Church, and who seem to be able to live without religion, but who are nevertheless good people. It would be a mistake to deny that they are good, or to claim that their goodness is an illusion. But it would be true, I think, to say that their lives lack something.
Their lives lack an explicit spiritual dimension, though, in conversation with them, one might find that they do have some spiritual awareness, though this may be rather unfocussed. What we as Christians should try to do is to engage with them on this wavelength and see if we can find something explicit in this implicit spirituality.
Their lives clearly lack an explicit faith in God, and this, though they may not realise it, means that they lack something important, namely God’s approval. Ignorance is never pleasing to God (how could it be?) and God wants to be known and loved by all; therefore if someone does not know God, this is a serious lack in their life. Yet, even though God does not approve of their ignorance of Him, we cannot say that God does not love them. God is love. Moreover, God loves human goodness, and therefore he looks kindly on all those who live good lives. Their goodness is not illusory: God, looking at their good deeds sees and loves in them what he sees and loves in Jesus Christ His Son, the Virgin Mary and all the Saints.
And yet we are told in the Scriptures and in the constant tradition of the Church that salvation is of Christ the Lord and that all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. Outside Christ there is no salvation. This cannot be denied. I could quote numerous verses of Scripture to back this up – but I would rather just point to the whole of Scripture as bearing witness to Christ and salvation through Him.
Could these good people who do not know Christ explicitly, or who may have heard of Him but not responded to Him (at least not explicitly), could they somehow be people who belong to Christ without really knowing it themselves?
This is the usual answer to the question, one associated with the theology of Karl Rahner and his theory about what he calls “anonymous Christians”.
But I would prefer not to get stuck into Rahner, much as I think he was onto something of importance in his theory, even though it has its difficulties. I would rather go with the idea I once heard advanced in a sermon on Our Lord’s words about the vine and the branches. Some branches are clearly and visibly grafted onto the vine; other branches may be hanging onto the vine despite the fact that they have seemingly been broken off, yet they are part of the vine still.
Thus there may be baptised Christians fully participating in the life of the Church; and baptised Christians who seemingly are cut off, but are hanging by a thread or two, and receiving the grace of Christ. But it goes further: the grace of Christ in its operations transcends the physical structures of the Church. There may be those who participate in the grace of Christ without having any visible connection with his Church at all. Nevertheless that connexion may be real and effective.
I may have dug myself into a terrible hole over this, but I would stress one last thing. If someone, like my questioner’s son-in-law, is a good person who never goes to Church, and who seemingly has no need for or interest in religion, we should view this state of affairs as a challenge. We should not think he should be left as he is, but try our best to engage with him and to bring him into the Church. That must be the will of God, who, after all, founded the church to be the Ark of Salvation and a house of prayer for all nations.
About Fr Stephen Smuts
Wow, this whole piece is amazingly theologically, not to mention biblically lite! Especially for us Reformed Christians! Even Barth or Bathian’s could tear into this. The doctrine of Original Sin, and the place of God’s “hatred” of Sin, is really lite today, especially in many of the so-called historical churches. My take anyway!
I would be tempted to say, seeing the way some “committed Christians” talk and write, salvation is to be found above all outside the Church…
It’s not much from a Catholic perspective either, especially if you read the four creeds; but very many of us Catholics are unconscious Pelagians – which may be why the Salvation of Souls means little to most of us: otherwise we would be on fire for things like the Ordinariates, to say nothing of standard missionary work and the New Evangelisation. Now, Our Lord told us to call “no man good.” It really drives me nuts to hear people going on about folk they know who are “good.” There are tons of people I know whom I like; there are some I love – I would hardly call them “good” because I am confessor to none of them – and my affection is not, to my knowledge, salvific (life would be easier for me if it were). The one thing that drives me crazier is the phrase “I’m a good person” – often used by celebrities in the midst of scandal. I would not use it myself, because I really do not know if it is true. Alas, we are all fallen, and need Christ’s grace – concretely applied via the Sacraments of His Church – to escape the trap sprung on our first parents. Well – all the rest of you do; I live in Southern California!
Indeed Charles, I wonder how many Roman Catholic priests today even remember the historical issues between Pelagius and Augustine, or better yet even care? Btw, note Pelagius was a Brit!
Note, “Matt. 19:17: “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is God.” (Jesus). And as St. Paul quotes from Pslam 14 in Romans 3: 12, “There is none that who does good, no not one.” And too, Paul says in the same chapter in verse 23, ‘for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
And btw, “Christ” is the Church, and His Body Mystical! Which foremost to my understanding is Invisible, note now it is the “Wheat & Tares”, it it does appear at least that there are more tares now than wheat?
I blame it on poor catechism, poor catechism, and poor catechism. Also liberalism. When “everything is okay” there’s no impetus to read anything about Sts. Augustine, Irenaeus, Anselm, John Chrysostom, Basil, Pope Gregory, etc. Much less Pelagius, Donatus, Nestorius, Arius, Sabellius, Jansen, Luther, Hus, Marcion, Montanus, etc. Because “They’re alright, in their own ways.” We live in an age of intellectual laziness, because it is easier to not read, and to follow what “feels” right. The only first step out of this is asceticism. Asceticism will destroy any comfort, and complacency, and will clear the head.
And then, there is the forgetting of Scripture. Taking Scripture out of context is bad enough, but ignorance in how Scripture has been traditionally interpreted in the framework of Church History through the Church Fathers and Apostolic Tradition is dangerous. After all, Dogmatic Theology is sterile without Scriptural Theology, so Scriptural Theology would have to depend on the sound interpretation of the Fathers, rather than the approach that anyone can reach their own conclusions upon reading Scripture without any effort.
People are good, but flawed. Good, because God made us and because we are made after His Image. Because of our first parents, we are flawed.
We are not Jansenists who deny the salvation of souls and forgiveness of sins because “We are utterly depraved” and all that nonsense.
The Church predestines no one to damnation, but works tirelessly for everyone’s salvation, through the Grace of God present in the Sacraments, God’s clergy, and God’s people. Without Grace, all this piety is mere puritanism.
People, like everything else, are “good” by virtue of being created. It is not, however, a question of “utter depravity” – with its concomitant denial of Free Will – but the simple truth that we most often freely choose evil (let’s remember our last visit to the confessional). Calling someone “good” in the sense that Fr. Lucie-Smith appears to intend it presupposes a great deal of information about other that we simply don’t have – indeed, we rarely have it about ourselves! For the Calvinists and the Jansenists, the great temptation was despair; for us moderns it is presumption. Every age has its special temptations.
“…the simple truth that we most often freely choose evil…”
Ah, Concupiscence! I remember Fr. Robert Barron making a video about that, calling it in our modern term, “Addiction”
You might want to read some of Augustine here, and his debate with Pelagius. And to quote from Peter Brown’s grand bio of Augustine: “Fundatissima fides ‘the most firmly established faith’, is what Augustine thought he was defending against the Pelagians.” One can see this in his great work, “the high-water mark of Augustine’s literary career.” (Augustine..Brown, page 354), ‘Causa Gratiae’! And as you I hope know, Pelagius (with Caelestius, his disciple) and his teaching were condemned as heresy…Epistula tracatoria. (Pope Zosimus).
Awe, Concupiscence, Augustine called it sin!
Blaise Pascal, now there was a true Catholic Augustinian, he knew that God’s grace was only an efficacious grace, which determines my will, can move me forward. But man is not granted perfectability in this life, even with grace, he as in Adam, an aberrant-wanderer! Here we can see Augustine’s later change in Romans 7.
Blaise Pascal was a Jansenist heretic.
@Ioannes: That is another one of your biased and ignorant opinions! But what else is new! I bet you have never read a line of the “Pensees” or ‘The Provincial Letters’! Sorry mate, but get with the program!
Btw, the “program” with God, is always mercy, grace and love ‘In Christ Jesus’! But always, simply always “in spirit and truth”!
I say he was a Jansenist heretic because that’s what he was, which is what Luther was, and Calvin, and Cranmer. You can be as angry and perturbed as you like about it.
Being a heretic, I meant. Jansen came later. That’s the problem nowadays, too much “Oh, that’s not nice.” when calling a heretic a heretic, a schismatic a schismatic, and apostate an apostate. Well, I really don’t care much about “nice” if all it does is soften the resolve, and to mutilate what others were mutilated and killed for, namely, a non-Protestant (or should I say, non-rebellious, obedient), apostolic, historic, Catholic faith. It also amuses me how despite “There’s no use” talking to me, you still go on and behave as if there’s a “use”.
If anything, interaction with you reminds me of my interaction with an atheist who insists that one can be good without believing in God or being a part of a religion. All one needs is a good brain and empathy. And she was more scriptural than you, too.
Mr. I, I can be mean as hell myself, so “your” lightweight to me! And again, just historically and theologically ignorant! And I mean ignorance in the sense of sectarian! And btw, you cannot out last me kid, people like you just slide off my British Commando blade! Of course I am speaking in metaphor!
Yes, and in reality, I’m the president of the United Methodist Church with a doctorate in Theology, Patristics, Canon Law, Physics, Mathematics, and Evolutionary Biology. Honestly, I don’t even get the point of mentioning anything about yourself to a total stranger on the internet and expect them to believe you at everything. You know, during the age of identity theft.
Especially when the background is irrelevant in the discussion. So what, if you’re a British Commando with the Royal Shakespeare Medal who killed 100,000 men in his lifetime, if you haven’t made any convincing arguments that punched the face of the Roman Catholic Church and definitively proved that Protestantism is the one true religion.
It’s sad and attention seeking.
Will you two just compare genitalia and have done with it?
I have simply had enough of reading/hearing “Ioannes” pontificate! It’s a very old school Roman Catholic thing! The only way to sometimes deal with such bigoted sectarianism, is to just say hey, enough! And yes, I am just an old RMC..and very human even as a Anglican priest/presbyter. But I defer to our blog host, who’s more kind and mild than I am! And I will cease to speak to this person!
*We all know this is generally a “Catholic” blog, and I am one of the “outsiders” here.
An ‘outsider’? Never Fr. You’ve been here from the start, and your views, comments and opinions are always welcome.
Father: Of course I was speaking from the “outsider” standpoint, “theologically”, I am not (now) the Anglo-Catholic per se. But thank you as always for your generous and broad spirit ‘In Christ’! I hope others can see and greatly appreciate your witness to Jesus Christ!
@Ioannes: It may be well to remember that when any person points a finger, at least three fingers point right back at himself/herself…………………………
The world is not as black-and-white as you would like to portray it.
“Absolute Truth”? Read Socrates!
Ah, yes. I am a hypocrite, and so are you, because we have a standard to go by, which is the Absolute Truth. Can any of us say that we have lived sinless lives, devoid of mistakes and imperfections? We’re all welcome in the hospital for sinners we call “Church” – So long as it is the One, True Church, and not counterfeit “churches” deficient in Grace. Those are more or less abattoirs and their doctors are nothing more than butchers, no matter how refined and masterful their cuts are.
Jesus Christ is the Absolute Truth, sir. Are you equal to or a possessor of the Absolute Truth so as to be my Judge? But at the same time, we are charitably given the room to err, so I cannot stop you nor can you stop me from exercising our Free Will, which includes the ability to judge and discriminate.
The standard laid down in the Bible, as the Absolute Truth, which we are blessed and privileged to have as a guide to try and live by, tells us: Love your neighbour as yourself.
It furthermore tells us that God alone is The Judge.
Mercifully we are human, and as such prone to err. Only then can we experience the mercy of being saved by God’s Grace alone.
I do not believe for even a moment that God will reject anyone who proclaims Him as the Only God and Saviour.
Ioannes, may you be abundantly blessed. May you also experience the liberating Joy of the Lord.
P.S. I am not a Sir. I am a Madam.
And as for Salvation outside the Church, What about the thief on the cross?
Jesus Christ, who was still with us on the Cross at the time He forgave the Penitent Thief, IS the Church. Where He went, there was the Church, because He is The Way, The Truth, and The Life; By the time of the Pentecost, the Church has the fullness of the Truth, presents and follows the hard, narrow Way, and by the waters of Baptism and the Precious Blood and Water that flows out of the wounds of Christ that is offered for many in the Holy Eucharist, there is Life Everlasting. The Church is the guarantor of a soul’s salvation, and the Church has an earthly head, in Peter and his successors as Jesus Christ Himself proclaimed.
From Matthew 16:
“16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
———–
The Bible is about Jesus Christ and the relationship of us sinful humans with God; it doesn’t embody Jesus Christ. It’s the other way around, Jesus Christ is the embodiment and perfection of Scripture, which, taken only as an earthly book, is full of contradictions, because it is not written by God Himself, but inspired by Him through holy, if not imperfect, men. And so, Scripture must be interpreted by authorities of the Church, as courts and legitimate authority would interpret law-giving constitutions of various nations. It is not self-interpreting, nor can any individual, subjective interpretation automatically result in orthodoxy.
Not everything Jesus did or said was written, because if that were so, not all the books in the world can contain them; and so, the Scripture itself does not contain the fullness of the truth, but is a portion, only a part of what God allows to be revealed and, guided by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Fathers of the Catholic Church compiled what was worthy into the Canon, which was then disfigured by “Reformers” who act in the spirit of Rebellion, not Obedience.
Jesus Christ is the Word of God incarnate. He did not come to abolish the Law but to Fulfill it. In the Person of Jesus Christ, humanity has the New and Everlasting Covenant, sealed with His Sacrifice on the Cross, and really, truly occurs in the Sacrifice of the Mass as performed by a Catholic Priest in communion with the Successor of Saint Peter and the Apostles. Either this is true, or Jesus Christ, our Lord, Savior, and God, is a liar.
Addendum:
So, where is Jesus Christ? If we look at The Lord’s Prayer, He teaches us “Thy Will be Done on Earth as it is in Heaven.”
Jesus Christ, Who is the perfect example of obedience to the Father, is now seated at the Right Hand of the Father, and does His Will in Heaven, and does His Will on Earth. How? Through the Church He established, which contains the Sacraments wherein we experience God and receive His Grace. He is as much present in the Catholic Church, (which we rightly call The Mystical Body of Christ) as He is in Heaven, and He is at the core of all things: The Eucharist. Without the Eucharist, the Catholic Church is nothing more than another Islam or Judaism, based upon the moral teachings of some obscure rabbi. His teachings are not at the center, they are instead crystalized and realized (not theorized) in His actions and the Passion He underwent. He Loves God, He Loves Us. And so, He suffered and was put to death on the Cross for our Salvation, and on the Third Day, He rose from the dead.
There is no Salvation outside the Church, because we must unify ourselves as closely as possible to Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God incarnate and therefore is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, who is also present in His Church on Earth, regardless of the amount of sinners present within. His Church is a way for us to practically be unified unto Him, not only as a People of God, but as individuals who accept a personal God who knows our own individual sufferings and works with and through us in our lives.
IOANNES: from one ‘devout Roman Catholic’ to another: your Faithfullness to the Church’s Teachings as well as your Obedience to the Magisterium and the Pope is only OUTDONE by your Arrogance and Pride! You are young, perhaps that’s your fault, but you must learn to RESPECT your elders and those who differ from you….You will make very little progress in the Spiritual Life with such an…Attitude. I would not have remained in the RCC today if I based my Faith on the WITNESS of such Arrogance as you display…the Church is full of such people and it makes me cringe…because the GOSPEL is not BEING PREACHED!!
If I were a person of no Faith but ‘looking for JESUS’ (even subconsciously), I would surely be drawn to Fr. Robert’s WITNESS before I would yours; something to ponder and reflect on….
Jesus gives us the hidden secret of ‘living LIFE’: “Take my Yoke upon you as I AM Meek and Humble of Heart, for my Yoke is Easy and MY Burden light”: yes, Meekness makes Life Easy – for all concerned – and Humility (!)…the Lightest burden we can ever carry!
May God grant you length of days so that you may grow and learn…to take HIS Yoke upon you!
Simply put, there’s no “Honor your Elders” but there is “Honor Thy Mother and Father”- Who is my Mother? The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God. Who is my Father? God in Heaven. By extension, my earthly mother and father; by extension, the Holy Fathers and Holy Mother Church to whom they are married.
Simply to say, age can be irrelevant and does not necessarily lend to wisdom, as you can be the oldest man and also the greatest fool and the most wicked. No, even in old age, a person can fall from grace, and they are more culpable because of what they know, than say, a child who assaults a priest. For example, Origen and Tertullian- they should know better, but they are not saints because of their errors.
Finally, we are saved by Jesus Christ, not by what we know or whoever else we respect outside of people bound to Him. If you were my age and a humble, holy person, bound to Christ and His Church, I will respect you and even die for you because I know I am the lesser man; the same if you were a year older, or twenty years older, or a thousand years older. I cannot say the same for people like Luther, Calvin, and a certain Anglican minister in this blog who continually insults the papacy and Rome and then demands I respect him on the basis of his age and personal accomplishments.
Hate me if you want, I don’t care; but love God, His Church, and His Vicar, the Pope of Rome. What of your neighbor? Well, there’s your challenge and mine.
Amen, well said Margaret, and thank you for your kindness, we are as Christians All, “Beloved” In Christ, if we are regenerate! (Note, 1 John 2:12-14)
Btw, our brother and blog moderater Fr. Stephen says, to speak my liberty ‘In Christ’, and let God judge! So Mr. I/J, the challenge is open, and back on!
Well, it’s Fr Stephen’s blog and his rules, and I shall try to be a good houseguest. But let me say that I have started to avoid topics which feature endless posts by you and he, because I can’t bear to wade through them to get to the points which other people make. I’m not saying “don’t debate” (and I wouldn’t say that, even if it was my own blog), but please have a care for the people who visit who might want to read what other people think…
Well one must jump in, that’s always the nature of the blog! Ya know “Ioannes” will!
One can only really speak the truth as he has experienced it, even theologically! I try most often however, to seek to speak as a pastor, but a pastor is also always a teacher. Though of course there is no “infallibility” in any man, or a Pilgrim Church!
Stephen:
That’s very judicious of you. But I have no regrets in what I have posted so far. If I did, I would correct it.