Fr Harry Entwistle at the Melbourne Information Day
July 22, 2012 23 Comments
A talk by Fr Harry Entwistle on the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of the Southern Cross at the Melbourne Informtion Day.
Download it in pdf. here.
HT: Conchúr
UPDATE: Australia: Is no news good news?
The Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of the Southern Cross in Australia has now been up and running for 5 weeks, but news from down under is few and far between.
We know that Very Rev. Harry Entwistle is the Ordinary. (This post will include below an interview with Fr. Entwistle from the end of June and a recent talk.)
We know that St. Ninian and St. Chad, Maylands, Perth, is the principal church or Pro-Cathedral.
For some time we have known that the Ordinariate Group in Melbourne shares Holy Ghost Church in South Caulfield with the diocesan congregation.
We also learned some time ago that Fr. Warren Wade leads an Ordinariate Group of some 10 faithful in North Turramurra.
But that’s about it. There would seem to be no Ordinariate website yet, no Ordinariate groups, fraternities, communities, fellowships, sodalities or societies are immediately findable on Google, little news has been made public. And what about the Church of the Torres Strait?
Rest here.
About Fr Stephen Smuts
“I must avoid the demands and requirements of those bloggers on sites who are experts in all matters religious even though their grasp of the facts is somewhat limited.” Absolutely
“I am conscious of how important it is for the foundations of the Ordinariate to be solid.”
I think that this advice is carefully followed by OOLW and OCSP as well, even at the expense of immediate ‘success’.
I am always impressed when the Church is able to find such fine men to do the job. The right man in the right place. God bless Fr. Entwistle.
There is also a small group in Gippsland Victoria. There is a priest and five laity (two already Catholics), and two others who reconciled previously but seem to be happy where they are at the moment.
Ken+
Personally, I am offended that he will not take into account my timeline for his Ordinariate, just because I am almost completely unaware of the actual conditions with which he has to deal. His crack about “experts on all matters religious” I take as a personal attack!
Seriously, I am really blown away by this excellent and informative talk. What a fine man he must be. One of the comments on it at the AC website does point out the problem of the Recusants in the seamless view of English spirituality. But I believe that one product of the Ordinariates will be the ability to reconcile St. Thomas More and John Fisher with Bishops Laud and Ken. We’ll have to re-examine the Cavaliers and Jacobites to see how it’s done!
No Laud for me (his treatment of the Puritans was awful!), there had to be a more Christlike way! (I am not a puritan). But Bishop Ken was okay. I don’t see much of reconcilation myself!
Btw, I am not so sure now about Entwistle? But, I will say no more!
What a load of bilge… translated , he is really saying the ordinariate in Australia is a complete failure.
By the way ,there is nothing that represents English spiriuuality.. it is as diverse as the English people. Australia should have been a branch of the English Ordinariate as, Canada is of the US.
The Caroline divines were heretics, denying transubstantiation,intercesssion of the saints and purgatory.The pre Reformation Saints cited and holy persons are the heritage of the Catholic Church and not a gift from Anglicans.
Most of the ritual that the Ordinariate has, was purloined from the Roman Catholics in the nineteeth century…
@Robert I.W. : It’s hard for you to let history retain itself on Anglicanism isn’t it, and the historical information about Cranmer’s Protestantism is just overwhelming! You want to press Roman Catholic theology into where it just won’t go! But “Rome” itself seems to want to use the Anglican Ordinariate’s,(the BCP, etc.) to evangelize the English speaking Roman Catholics. And this includes liturgy.
Are you praying for the success of the Ordinariate, or hoping for its failure?
The great burden of the Ordinariate’s seems to be placed on the Anglican people themselves, and of course their leaders! Myself, I only pray that God’s will be done! And here mostly for the sake of the people and the Anglican patrimony, itself. Save perhaps for the Aussies, the Catholic bishopric seems outside of this? i.e. in authority.
Sorry, I meant to direct this question at Robert Ian Williams, who apparently has a distinct antipathy towards all things Ordinariate.
Stephen raised an interesting question – are you praying for the Ordinarite? I am not praying
for the Ordinariate as Church within a Church, but rather pray for two present TAC Clergy, who
I have known for years and are my friends, and who are going into the Ordinariate in the Melbourne area. I am going to miss them , but I am praying for them that they might find what they are looking for. I feel that the turmoil in the TAC Australia behind us, well let me rephrase
that is almost behind us, I find it extremely difficult to pray for its success. You also asked
if Fr.Robert was praying for its failure, my answer to that is that I would not entertain that.
Former TAC Hierachy have broken many promises, an exemple is to prepare for alternative
oversight for those not going to Rome, they have lied to us and promised Union in Communion and they have removed the licenses of those Priests in the TAC, who oppossed the AC.
Easy is not ? If you have opponents just remove them.Perhaps we ought to ask Father
Harry if thought about praying for the people of Saint Ninian in Perth, who decided not to follow him on the road to Rome.
Blessings from down under
Revd.Fr.Ed Bakker
Indeed Fr. I am mostly just praying for God’s will in all this, God is sovereign and providential. I will never go to Rome myself…been there and done that! I am solidly Reformational & Reformed in soteriology, but always an Anglican ecclesiastically.
Unadulterated Cranmer in his BCP never won the hearts of the English people.Thats why, today less than one in 5 English babies are baptized Anglicans. That Anglicanliturgical tradition will win the nation to Christ is naive to say the least.
The Caroline divines, whilst higher Church than Cranmer were thorough going Protestants. They abominated prayers for the dead, the intercession and invocation of saints, purgatory and transubstantiation. Even Laud accepted the non episcopal orders of continental Protestants, and allowed a French presbyterian church in the crypyt of his Cathedral. Interestingly it still worships there! Show me a caroline divine who atempted to revive the sacrament of annointing with sick..or wore a mitre or chasuble.The statues of Charles the first and Laud at the Ango-Catholic shrine in Walsingham are bogus. Both men , never aked the prayers of the Virgin Mary.
Marian devotion was a ritiualist import in Victorian England.
When some Caroline divines ( the non jurors), tried to effect union with the Orthodox East, they were told where to go, because of this intrinsic Protestantism. They has asked the Orthodox to give up icons and the intercession of Saints! Such is the eccentricity of the Anglican mind.
Post script…Australian Anglicanism, claims nearly four million adherents..but only 180,000 actually attend Church. Half of thse are in Sydney and rabid Evangelicals . The Anglo catholic movement in Australia is on its last legs, and quite literally diocese of that hue are collapsing.The only real substantive growth is within Sydney, and thats where you get authentic Cranmer served up.
@Robert I.W. : I would have to say that you are wrong with your first sentence! (08:38) I am perhaps older than you (62), and came from Dublin to England in my teens (I went back and forth actually between Ireland and England, school and college, etc.), and most certainly many CoE people had their own copy of the BCP. And even many English read their KJV somewhat! Indeed the Biblical literacy was much higher in those days.
“Rabid Evangelicals”.. Aussies? Such is not good historical judgment but bias opinion! Would that Catholicism had some better zeal overall, and no doubt the Ordinariate Anglicans, with perhaps their “eccentricity” will help here!
Hello Robert, a comment regarding your postscript. When you say the Anglican Catholic Movement in Australia is on its last leg, are you actually referring to the movement within the Anglican
Church of Australia. If you are , then I concur. I think that All Saints Anglican Church in East Saint Kilda is the only Holy Place left. In the ACCOP, we are not on are last legs, and the ACCA
is looking at the opportunity to start again as a going concern, after the departure of John
Hepworth. I know all about the diocese of Sydney, about clergy wearing no more robes, about plans to introduce lay presidency at the Eucharist, you might as well convert to Protestantism, it is all far removed from the world I am standing in as a Priest and no doubt also the world in which Father Stephen Smuts is standing.
Sadly, here in the Anglican Diocese of Bendigo, there is not one Church I would like to attend.
Blessings
Father Ed Bakker
Fr Bakker – What is your view on the prospects of the reunion of TAC and ACC-OP? (Affirmation of St Louis common to both jurisdictions.)
I am never keen on responding to someone, who likes to remain anonymous, but
the prospects are there, but it is going to take considerable time for this to happen I think.
In my humble opinion, it is the right thing to pray for and achieve.
Fr.Ed Bakker
But Sydney Anglicanism is the genuine Protestant Anglican tradition…they are the true heirs of Cranmer’s patrimony. You may have 3 old ladies in your congregations, but Sydney Anglicanism is dynamic and growing.
Btw, watch out for those praying “old ladies”!
Note, I have almost everything historically written by the great Evangelical Anglican, T.C. Hammond! Indeed Sydney Protestant Anglicanism is alive and well!
For those that care I wanted to recommend the book: ‘The Oxford Movement in Context: Anglican High Churchmanship, 1760 – 1857′, by Peter Nockles (a Roman Catholic historian btw) 1994, first paperback edition, 1997 – Cambridge). In my opinion it is one of the best, but not a first book on the subject.
I want to recommend “Ritualism in Victorian Britain” (OUP 2001) by Nigel Yates…it shows how Anglo catholicism is an invention of the nineteenth centiury, with most of its ritual and doctrine imported from Rome. If only many sincere Anglo-catholics knew this.
It is a great mistake to believe that the older High Church movement of the seventeenth century is the ancestor of Anglo Catholicism. High Church Anglicanism was solidly Protestant.Whereas ritualism which emerged as Anglo Catholicism was purely imitative.
Seventeenth century High Churchmen in the main never believed:
1) the Holy Communion elements were to be worshipped
2) that the saints could be sought in intercession.
3) that prayers could be said for the dead
4)that the Apostolic succession was of the esse of the Church.
I would agree that in basic theology the early Caroline Divines were mainly Protestant, but as historic Anglicanism is a church of the via-media, when we turn to the Tractarian and Oxford Movement, we can see an Anglican Church of the via-media, leaning towards the Anglo-Catholic. And there we see with Pusey, Newman especially, the movement into Anglo-Catholicism. If we miss Newman’s slow but certain change (theologically) towards this idea, we will miss the genesis of this movement itself. At least as to where it went in the later 19th and early 20th century. And so the word “invention” would certainly be incorrect, as to the whole Oxford Movement! Certainly too, the movement was early really a desire to stay the erosion of orthodoxy in the CoE, and if we miss Keble’s sermon on “National Apostasy” given at Oxford (St. Mary the Virgin) in 1833, against a Parliament bill to reduce the number of bishoprics of the Church of Ireland, we will also miss understanding the early movement, itself. And it is here that we must also see people like E.B. Pusey and R.H. Froude.