Athens Is Only EU Capital Without a Mosque
December 29, 2012 23 Comments
And the BBC is not impressed:
Stressing that Athens is the only EU (European Union) capital without a mosque, the BBC has revealed that some 300,000 Muslims living in the Greek capital are sandwiched in basements to pray, the To Vima (Greek) website reports today
(December 28, 2012).“The absence of a mosque here (Athens) is a great tragedy for us Muslims,” said Mohammad Jamil Sient, a native of Pakistan now living in Athens. He added, “Greece invented democracy, culture, and respect for each other’s religion, but does not respect us Muslims enough to give us a normal, legitimate mosque.”
There is resistance from various quarters — including some priests of the Greek Orthodox Church — that are opposed to a mosque in Athens. Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus — the seaport area of Athens — told the BBC, “Greece suffered five centuries of Islamic tyranny under the Turkish yoke and construction of the mosque would insult witnesses who liberated us.”
A BBC correspondent said Seraphim’s viewpoint is Islamophobic and discriminates against Muslims.
About Fr Stephen Smuts
Didn’t the Greeks elect a leftist government? Expect churches being handed to Muslims in Athens in the future.
As for these Muslims demanding a mosque?
Maybe, just maybe… Christians should get a church at Mecca, first.
Oh Ioannes! The Greeks have not elected a leftist government but a rather right wing one whichi s presently implementing the austerity programme demanded by the EU in return for the bailout. Greece has a “leftist” government when KKE (The Greek Communist Party) is part of the coalition.
There is much anti-Muslim sentiment in Greece which does go back to the years of Turkish occupation. There are still Muslim minorities in the north of Greece – from Xanthi up to the Turkish and Bulgarian border and they have been discriminated against for years.
There are historical reasons for old prejudices and they die hard. Whenever one sees a religion or a group described as “these” (as in “these Muslims” in your post) one can expect a manifestation of prejudice.
As it happens, there are no Christians in Mecca. If an when you visit Saudi Arabia you will see that on the motorways leading to Mecca, non-Muslims are required to turn off before the Holy City. So what’s your point? The BBC report was about Greece not Saudi Arabia and Greece has signed up to the ECHR and has been found to discriminate against Muslims in the past.
BTW I have no brief for the government of Saudia Arabia or its medieval appoach to most matters – so by all means lobby the US Government to withdraw its longstanding support for the Saudi regime and lets see if we can end up with something more enlightened.
Ah, see, I keep hearing “PASOK” here and there, but maybe not so much total updates on Greek politics. It is as easy to follow as keeping track of Japan’s prime ministers. (Being an American and all- I tell you, I can’t find ten people from the street who can explain what the “Fiscal Cliff” is.)
I definitely understand where the Greeks are coming from, just from reading their history. Living in Los Angeles, I also know a thing or two about Armenians as well, and I can totally understand where hatred of Turks and Muslims come from. Let me just say how more sympathetic the histories of these two peoples are than that of the Turks and their excuses for having done what they did. (I hope I did not offend you, Mr. “Mourad”- I just know how it feels when a people’s collective psyche have been damaged by another group’s historical actions and the ensuing, self-absolving revisionist history that follows. “Oh, hey, let’s just pretend nothing happened!”)
It’s not like these Muslims were already there before the Turks came in. If that were the case, then they’re entitled to their Mosques. But that’s not the case in Greece, where they are foreigners- they are not entitled to anything. Of course, I’m prejudiced. Racially and gender-discriminating too! I discriminate everything so long as they are different. (And we all know what I think of other faiths) You can try to not be prejudiced, but you’d only be fighting your human nature to imagine and believe before or without seeing. Surely, you have your prejudices, and I’m not about to judge you for them. To be fair, it is a different thing when prejudice stems from ignorance. One can be both knowledgeable and prejudiced at the same time, I think. It’s not the same thing as reaching a hasty generalization- But trying to learn more about what is painfully obvious before making a judgement is a sign of slothful induction.
(Yes, you know x amount of Muslims who are good, peace-loving, etc. But your personal experience is probably outweighed by their group’s historic and present actions which speak louder than any diplomatic platitudes.)
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Now, as a Filipino, I know things about Saudi Arabia- I have many relatives working there, as well as in other Gulf Countries. I know about the route separating Jeddah from Mecca, with its “Muslims Only” exit ramp. My point is, Muslims can’t go about demanding Mosques, when they can’t even provide for Christian migrant workers a place of worship in their “Holy Land”- No, the Aramco Chapel does not count- not even a rosary or a cross is allowed in Saudi Arabia. For Muslims to complain that Athens is the only EU capital without a mosque is a lot like an obese person complaining that Looneyville, Texas does not have a McDonald’s- when there’s enough to go around in America. Maybe, just as that obese person should get in shape, those Muslims should convert to Christianity. Or prohibited to show outward signs of their faith in public. Strange thing, as oikophobic Europeans penalize Christians for rightfully expressing their Christianity in Christian lands. Do Muslims get penalized for raising their buttocks against the West in places like London or Paris?
So I found this discrimination against Muslims justified. Are we saying that Muslims don’t discriminate -unjustly- against Christians, not only in Saudi Arabia, but in historically-but-not-really “Muslim lands”? To be ‘Christian’ and to let the Muslims do as they please is the farthest thing from being just and being Christian. It is un-Christian to allow fellow Christians to be mistreated (and flat-out murdered) by a people who spread lies about Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity. Let the Muslims be instead thankful that they are no longer being expelled and converted by sword nor their places and objects of worship burned. I am of the opinion that the Spaniards of old had the right idea in dealing with these followers of false religion, and I certainly hope that Santiago Matamoros will remain a popular devotion for an increasingly secularized and Islamized Europe.
As for the U.S. Government? I do hope you are joking, sir. When a government threatens institutions with taxation unless they compromise their religious beliefs, I don’t think there will be any help for Christians in Saudi Arabia, or in Iraq, or -anywhere- at this point. At least, not from the U.S. Government. Private citizens and societies are a different matter.
But in any case! It is not Islam which is the greatest threat, it is Atheism.
Mourad, The current Greek government is a 3-party coalition. Two leftist parties and one rightist. The rightist party did get the most votes and seats but they fell short of a majority. Though “rightist” for Greece doesn’t mean conservative in the American manner or traditional liberal in th Australian manner.
Both the major right- (New Democracy) and left-wing parties (Socialist) contributed horribly to the financial mess Greece is in as they both were in power in the 2000s without being in coalition. Both spent like drunken sailors, borrowed to pay bills, and lied about government accounts to cover up the growing mess. Both were reckless and Greece is paying the price. Sadly, Greece does hava a growing Neo-Facscist Party (New Dawn) that is NOT right wing. Fascism and communism are flipsides to the same failed totalitarian ideology that neither respects persons nor property.
Portugal has a 2-party governing coalition where both parties are on the right. Finland has about 5 or 6 parties in government with most coming from the left but the rightist National Coalition Party having Prime Minister.
Michael: I’d agree with your analysis about both Nea Demokritia and Pasok both spending like drunken sailors – for which the Greeks are now paying the price. I’d also agree with your characterisation of New Dawn as Neo-Fascist.
But part of the historic problem is that paying tax has always been regarded as voluntary by many wealthy Greeks – see as an example how the shipping industry structures its affairs – and that would include also the tax exemptions enjoyed by the Orthodox Church on its many investments.
Murad, The current 3-party coalition of the traditional big two (PASOK/Socialist (41 seats and New Democracy (108 seats)) were joined by a leftist party, Democratic Left (DIMAR-19 seats). The 2 leftist parties have about 1/3rd the total seats of the governing seats in parliament (excluding some recent evictions).
The neo-fascist populist party is Golden Dawn (21 seats), my bad. Couldn’t remember the proper name for these thugs and bullies.
The KKE (Communists-26 seats) and Syriza (52 seats) comprise the hard left. The Independent Greeks (ANEL-33 seats) comprise the populist right (non-fascist)
Interestingly, the Orthodox Church-related LAOS was wiped out in the last election. They lost all 15 of their former seats. A party gets into parliament on party grounds if it gets 3% of vote.
Mourad, I should’ve specified that the election results above were from the May 6, 2012 election. This was the ground-shifting one that saw the dramatic rise of Golden Dawn and Syriza. Greece had two parliamentary elections. I believe this was the first. In the 2nd New Democracy did better as did Syriza and PASOK continued its decline. Thinking ND and PASOK had enough to govern but added DIMAR to ensure a stronger coalition. Believe the 3 now combine for around 180 out of 300 seats.
Michael: It may well be that there are as many political parties as there are Greeks. In any event, Greeks think of themsels as a people rather than a nation. I remember asking a Greek friend to name the biggest Greek cities and got the instant response: Athina, Melvourni, Chicago, Nea Yorki, Thessaloniki.
Ioannes:-
From a secular point of view, freedom of religion is enshrined in the Eurpean Convention on Human Rights. Greece has signed up to the Convention. It has been found wanting on various matters in particular of discrimination against Greek citizens who happen to be Muslims let alone against immigrants.
As a Catholic whose ancestors were actively persecuted in my own country, were not emancipated until Victorian times and suffered discrimination for many years after legal emancipation, I regard any form of discrimnination as abhorrent. We should do unto others as they would have them do to us.
I do not think we can look with any pride at all on what some of our ancestors who called themselves Christians did to people of other Christian sects, let alone to those of other faiths.
Certainly one of the more abhorrent episodes was the Reconquista of Muslim Andalusia and the cult of “Santiago Matamoros” is a disgrace hich does not honour the Saint.
Your approach to Muslims is, I suggest, unchristian and contrary to the teaching of Holy Mother Church and since you purport to blog from a Catholic viewpoint, then it is high time you did a little study on the subject before shooting your mouth off futher lest you bring into disrepute the faith I hold dear (and which I hope you do).
Finally, if you look at the case of Saudi Arabia, you will find that it was FDR who made a finding that the defence of Saudi Arabia was viital to the national security of the USA jst before the USA finally arrived (late) for WW2. The aim was to be able to secure the oil concessions granted to Aramco (owned as you will know by US oil majors) during WW2 until they could be exploited after WW2 was over. The USA has done very well out of the obnoxious House of Saud ever since. But come the revolution….who knows. Part of the probelm is that the US State Department is, I am told, located in a place called Foggy Bottom. That may be why they have something of a track record for supporting dictators of one kind or another.
This “Freedom of religion” proclaimed by human powers, whether the UN or the US or the EU- they’re mutable! One could easily argue “Freedom from religion” from “Freedom of religion”! I do not trust these secular proclamations- for example, the UN proclaims birth control a “human right”! Can anything be more ridiculous!? “Freedom of Religion”, maybe- but let’s say “Freedom of Religion” is followed, what then happens to confronting error? Are people free to be wrong about religion, because their religion is basically a different one?
What happens to the integrity of the Catholic Church as a consequence? It becomes a breeding ground for indifferentism posing as ecumenism.
Maybe my “Catholicism” is a different religion, and should not be persecuted, hmm? The same way these “Death to those who insult Islam” fellows’ -demand- for a Mosque ought to be respected? This is the problem- the “Freedom of Religion” business is so high-minded it forgot how naive it is; people are different, and have different views- they can try to co-exist, but the peace found in such coexistence is temporary at best, but usually illusory, a sort of respite between bouts of inevitable conflict. In this respect, atheists think themselves “above” such conflicts, but then find themselves antagonizing theists as well.
Anyway, in case I run risk of “shooting my mouth further” (maybe too late at this point) let us look at a certain papal document called “Syllabus Errorum” shall we?
(Hint: everything listed below is an error)
III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM
15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.—Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862; Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851.
16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.—Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.
17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ.—Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.
18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church.—Encyclical “Noscitis,” Dec. 8, 1849.
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All that is conveniently forgotten “Post Vatican II” for some reason. As if conciliarism, endorsed by heretics such as Hans Küng, suddenly became the norm. What a strange religion we have here! But it’s on its way to decline, thankfully, as the Catholics who subscribe to this leave for atheism or some other religion, or just die out, leaving us with annoying, inconvenient embarrassments to “Mainstream Catholicism” such as myself.
As for the U.S.-Saudi connection, it is irrelevant at this point- as I’ve said, U.S. Policy does not bow to religion, but maybe that’s because the Holy See has yet to discover massive oil deposits below St. Peter’s Basilica, past below the Sacred Necropolis. Or maybe the Vatican Bank isn’t as in-control of the world economy as certain Protestant polemicists would love to believe.
Perhaps if the freedom, democracy loving Muslims would return Agios Sophia in Constantinople and quite killing Christians in Egypt (where they are the indigenous inhabitants) and Pakistan, building a mosque might be possible. Please, let them make the first move.
Perhaps you are unaware that in many country were there are Muslim majorities, there are many legal protections and privileges for Christians. Yes there are intercommunal horrors – generally the product of (i) ignorance and (ii) poverty. It we were a little better at providing development aid spent properly rather than propping up corrupt regimes, the incidence of such horrors might be alleviated. And we should set an example by not fuelling islamophobia.
I’m old enough to remember street battle between schoolboys where “proddy-dogs” fought “papists” – and while in the Army I tried to keep the peace between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland. Let’s not forget our own failings before we get too excicted about the failings of others.
The Catholic Church is the best religious group in the world. If anyone’s offended by this FACT- It’s regrettable that they’re offended. They can burn effigies, show placards, make death threats, even construct logical arguments- it’s not going to change anything.
Those Troubles in Ireland seemed to be a curse, at the first glance. But people certainly had a better sense of identity back then, didn’t they? People struggled for a cause, and heroes are made out of housewives and priests. Now, what? People don’t go to church in Ireland anymore, and there’s a misplaced hope in materially prosperous future that will never happen. I can’t believe older generations bled and toiled so that the younger generation will have nothing better to do than engage in morally questionable activities, and grow up in a world with a lesser quality of life.
I’ve come to see peace as an illusion. All Earthly peace is interlude to war. There can be no peace on Earth, because all of us are not the same, we are all different from each other in so many levels, despite a few similarities- it becomes a matter of time before conflict arises- so let us beware of people who promise an easy peace; the only person we ought to trust regarding peace is Jesus Christ- it is only through Him that we are truly united and at peace with one another. If it’s not Catholics fighting Protestants, it’s Atheists fighting theists, and Muslims fighting everyone. It’s nothing new- people have been fighting each other for thousands of years, even before people knew how to write or walk upright. And it’s not as if we will suddenly “evolve” out of this like so many idiotic atheists hope. It is more likely that we shall self-destruct than evolve or suddenly be enlightened and usher in a new era of peace and love. Such a thing cannot exist on Earth, until Jesus comes back again, perhaps. So it is most prudent to be prepared for conflict, since not all conflict is evil, and not all peace-making is righteous and just.
(Yet, blessed are the peacemakers. Jesus is encouraging them. He understands how the world is. Conflict itself cannot be avoided but this task of peace-making is in itself a rebellion against the world.)
Don’t forget Greece was occupied by the Ottoman Turks for 400 years ( plus). There are 150,000 Turks living in Northern Greece, but there are only 4,000 Greeks in Turkey. No mosque in Athens, no re-opening of the Halki theological College.
Much too facile. There are 150,000 Muslims in Northern Greece who are Greek citizens not foreigners. But until recently their names and identity documents showing their religion was a licence for kindly Greek Orthodox policemen to arrest them with impunity and beat them up in the police stations Some of them are of Romany extraction and their situation is, if possible, even worse.
There were of course population exchanges at the end of WW1 and there are still abandoned Greek villages to be seen along the Turkish coast in Asia Minor – many now being renovated as holiday homes.
The legacy of Ataturk was an agressively secular state both as regards Islam and the Orthodox Patriarch – which is why Agia Sofia is a museum and not a mosque – and why recently Turkish Army Generals refused to attend a Presidential reception because the President’s wife was wearing a headscarf – and why many universities have until recently refused to permit female students to wear headscarfs, the new government is more tolerant and this has led to improved relations with both the Orthodox and the Catholic church.
Don’t slag off Ataturk…he saved the Turkish nation from the Greek invaders…. in one sweep rid the country of its corrupt Royalty and gave women full rights, abolishing Islamic marriage laws. He changed the alphabet to a Latin standard and brought Turkey into the modern world.
Mourad, We can all hope and pray that the Turkish Republic improves its relations with Protestants, Roman Catholics, and most especially the Orthodox Church. They could start by reopening our seminary and pulling their occupation troops out of Cyprus.
That has just about the same possibility as the Hagia Sophia becoming a church again. The fact is, the Church of Constantinople is dying; its native Greek population is aging and dwindling, and whatever remains, whether in the Phanar or elsewhere, such as the Armenians, they will face more pressures to leave or assimilate until those communities of native Christians are extinct, and whatever sign of Christendom exists in Turkey would only be relegated to a museum; this is true for Iraq, Syria, and the Holy Land; it is true in Turkey, and it will be true in Europe and the Americas if nothing is done. European and American birth rates are going down, and I foresee a marginalized Christianity; for all the supposed rights and privileges of Christians in non-Christian lands, the tension will become more apparent.
The secularists are to blame. They are a rot in the Church. And don’t tell me this is only true in Roman Catholicism- even in Orthodox Lands, for example, Russia, you have Pussy Riot incidents and the Russian government has to pay people to make more children- so far as banning Americans adopting Russian orphans! It won’t be long before you have homosexual groups vandalizing and besieging Orthodox churches, in a repeat of what has happened during the Communist Revolution.
And secularism in an Islamic country does not make secularism any better!
Do any of you know that the site of St. Bartholomew’s martyrdom is INTENTIONALLY inside a Turkish military base? This is an outrage! The ancient Armenian churches, along with the kachkar Cross-stones aren’t even protected as historical places and objects but are VANDALIZED and left to be eroded by the elements! Where are the Armenians who used these things? MURDERED. Or deported. Or, the Turkish government, like with the Kurds, would do a little revisionist history and call them “Turks who don’t know they’re Turks.”
These are not actions of a good and civil people, and if they were, another crusade is justified, and bloodshed is inevitable! If you look at contemptible state of Christendom in Europe, it would be easier to convert to Islam already- people have already prepared themselves for it, considering the indifferentism posing as ecumenism.
Let’s remember the plastic abomination at St. Nicholas’ town of Myra. The bronze statue of the venerable saint is put to the side, as Santa Claus is put on a pedestal. I cannot see a more obvious act of Kulturkampf from the Turkish government.
Accursed secularism! It may have reduced the bite of the Muslims, but it has enervated Christendom at all fronts. There is no debating with these people!
@ Robert Ian Williams. I certainly would not wish to belittle the achievements of Ataturk – but there can be no doubt that he was an anti-clerical. As you will know he was to take the position that the article in the Turkish Constitution making Islam the state religion was “superfluous” saying that it was “a tactical necessity at the time” and anticlerical – towards the Muslim as well as the Christian clergy was deepy embedded into the Turkish state apparatus.
@ Michael Frost. I suppose that if the Orthodox Patriachate wishes a seminiary that might be a possibility, but the removal of Turkish troops from the Turkish part of Northern Cyprus is only likely to be achieved when there is an overall settlement of the intercommunal disputes in Cyprus and I have to say that the role the autocephalous Cypriot Church has played over the years since colonial times has not exactly been exemplary.
Yes, so forward thinking. Don’t forget his role before the dissolution of the Sultanate. Young Turks weren’t friends of Armenians or the Allied Powers. They were allied with Imperial Germany. Genocide against Christians certainly brought them into “the modern world”. Believe it was about 1939 when Hitler is reported to have said, “After all, who remembers the Armenians.” One might argue Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, and Mussolini had a thing or two to learn from him? Don’t forget “modern” Turkey sat out WWII. They would’ve been pleased with a Nazi victory, esp. vis-a-vis Russia, Greece, and the UK and French colonies in Middle East.
And the Mufti of Jersusalem was a great fan and friend of Hitler’s during World War II.
Indeed he was. Qute a few in the Arab world who wished liberation from colonial powers made that mistake. But their collaboration was born of anti-colonialism which is some excuse.
I do not think the same excuse holds good for the many Hitler fans in (for example) Italy, France, Portugal, Spain and the UK (yes he had his supporters here too – most of whom were interned at the outbreak of war).
Nor does that excuse hold good for the friends of the 3rd Reich in the USA who made it impossible for the USA to enter the War until December 1941. Hitler gave Henry Ford, the Grand Cross of the German Eagle, Germany’s Highest award open to non-nationals for supporting Hitler from 1924 to 1944, Standard Oil supplied Nazi Germany with fuel up to 1944, SKF with ballbearings to 1945, Ford, Chrysler & GM equipped the Wehrmacht with trucks and tanks. Prescott Bush’s involvement with the German steel industry is well documented in the files of the seizures eventually made under the US Trading with the Enemy Act.