One Country, Two religions…

In the Daily Mail:

  • Two photos show Sunday morning services in churches in East London
  • The third shows worshippers gathered for  Friday midday prayers outside a nearby mosque
  • The difference in numbers could hardly be  more dramatic…

St Mary's, Cable Street


Rest (and the other photo) here.




43 thoughts on “One Country, Two religions…

  1. Yes, but we need to qualify: Catholic Churches, and Evangelical “worship spaces” are full on any given Sunday. True, we Catholics close churches too, but it’s more from a lack of priests than from dwindling congregations.

    + pax et bonum

  2. Lol, I finf your fear factor entertaining. My middle name Robert descends from my mother’s father’s FitzGerald family Elizabethan entrepreneurial Munster soldier settler Planter Sir Robert Tynte whose Wrexhall, Co Somerset apical ancestor from the House of Arundel, now Duke of Norfolk gained his family name as a maiden knight from Richard the Lionheart at the Battle of Ascalon in the 3rd Crusade, 1192. The name is from the blood tinting the white Crusader tunic scarlet from Saracens. Clearly, ignorance is driving these fear factors & lack of serious relations, xenophobia. When then will you report on your personal mosque experiences? After all we’ve gained coffee, Arabic numerals, calculus, space travel capacity from Islam so seriously, what’s really your fear?

  3. Interesting Robert to see your quasi-Christian Father value judgement projected into what I feel.

  4. What I find hilarious Robert is Jesus whom you claim to follow as a Christian & to Apostolically Father a flock said, clearly, love your enemies yet you decided to help kill them!

  5. Radical Islam obeys the Will of Allah, God, Jehova, Yehova, breath, loving, caring, sharing, fear (false evidence appearing real) has no place in real Christianity … radical Islam is radical Christianity, the 3 Abrahamic Faiths … extremism, murder, mayhem aren’t Islam or Christian …

  6. Christendom not only wanted the world but took it Fr Robert as Larrakia here in Darwin demonstrate …

  7. Then Lt James Cook “took possession” 22 Aug 1770, breaching HM GeoIII’s British Admiralty’s 30 Jul 1768 Secret Sealed Orders which explicitly stated 30 Jul 1768, “take possession” “with Consent of the Natives”. Where is that consent?

  8. Our enemies are fear mongerers & greed = politics, the art of lying, remember that Ghandhi said >60ya that the British must leave India as friends?

  9. HM, Defender of the Faith, Supreme Governor of the Church of England ceased to be Heir Apparent to the British Empire the day the British left India as friends so Chairs CHOGM. Why then are you choosing to be scared, fear over embracing both the Ages of Reason & Enlightenment after those Medieval Dark Ages where the Holy Roman Catholic Church Curia descended into the Inquisition … Christendom has a lot to answer for, bleating about people praying, bowed towards Mecca demonstrates an astounding lack of awareness, intelligence, insight, respect, world experience, etc

  10. @Matthew: Yes, it seems YOU have “fleshed” yourself out! I am a biblical-theological conservative Reformed and neo-Calvinist, so no surprise here, and certainly no apology. But I do manage to love & serve the People of God, in my wee way, at least I hope! Btw I come from a home and up-bringing of some Irish Brits (I was born in Dublin), and Anglo-Irish (my father was, as were most of my uncles and some great uncles – as a few aunts – all served in the British military in WW II). My father (RIP) was a Spit pilot (RAF). He even flew a American P-51 Mustang he owned in air races well into his 60’s. He retired as a physicist. I have told the story before, but my father met the great American Neil Armstrong (when they were both older), and all they chatted about was flying & the airplanes they flew. Armstrong was a Naval pilot in the Korean War.

    Yes, I am a conservative and always a military-minded guy (my family blood, both my grandfathers were in WW 1)! I was in Gulf War 1, as a RMC recon officer (my last combat, but not my first).

    Btw, ad hominem, is literally, “attack the man”, i.e. with prejudice, rather than reason. It seems your right on that border mate! Your a liberal as it appears, I am a conservative… we not going to agree on much! Btw, don’t forget the father of conservatism: Sir Edmund Burke! (Anglo-Irish)

  11. Does that make Jesus a Liberal v Conservative too?

    I find it fascinating how you put lables on yourself Robert then project lables onto others.

    My mother’s father’s Anglo-Cambro-Norman Irish Uniacke-Judkin-FitzGerald-Bourne family are from Dublin too, Taney Hill. I’ve yet to determine if my Bourne apical ancestor’s were Anglicised from O’Byrne who were “beyond the Pale” in Leinster in what became Co Wicklow or not. My paternal 4x great grandfather General was incarcerated in the Bermingham Tower of Dublin Castle before being sent to Sydney as the highest ranking 1798 United Irishman having negotiated his surrender from the Wicklow Mountains through Lord Powerscourt & Bank of Ireland Peter Latouche paid for my 4x Great Grandmother Hester nee Long whose mother was of the Co Wicklow Oranger Manning family. Ironically perhaps my maternal 4x great grandfather Col Sir Thomas [Uniacke] Judkin-FitzGerald 1st Bt of Lisheen was 1798 High Sheriff of Tipperary, infamously became known as “flogging FitzGerald” and interviewed my pateral 4x Great Grandfather General Joseph Holt before he sailed in 1799.

    My point here is Christian diplomacy v defense.

    What makes so called Christians, followers of Christ, kill?

    What is it that causes people to cease loving their neighbour as themselves?

    What made you Robert want to kill anyone yet call yourself a follower of Christ Jesus?

    1. @Matthew: The Incarnation of God In Christ, and the Death of Christ are always going to be “a stumbling block”, as Paul says to the Jews, and especially “foolishness” to the Gentiles, (1 Cor. 1:23). As he also says first: “For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom.” (Verse 22). But of course today both are somewhat combined! Today people can mentally agree on some aspect of the idea of incarnation, the Greeks held something of that. But the Death of Christ, THE Son of God on a Roman Cross, that is as Peter says: “A Stone Of Stumbling and a Rock of Offense.” (1 Peter 2: 8 / Isa. 8: 14) This is also the great centre of the Gospel of Paul, and too what Luther came to see as the “theologia crucis”! Sadly today, many can handle a so-called gospel of an incarnate god, who has come to be a social worker, etc., but the biblical doctrine and revelation of the eternal God enfleshed to die on a cross for sinners? This is always only understood by those whom God In Christ has…”are called, both Jews and Greeks (Gentiles), Christ the power of God (crucified), and the (true) wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.” (1 Cor. 1: 24-25) Indeed this and all “these” theological realities of God’s doctrine and revelation are MY labels! Note here too, Paul’s profound chapter 3 of Philippians! (Noting, in this our context and discussion especially verses 17-19!)

      As to your most ad hoc questions as to “killing”, I am, and was part of the Armed Forces of Her Majesty’s Service! A service to guard and protect the British national security and people, and Her Majesty’s sovereignty, as a Christian leader! You might want to read Romans 13: 1-7, etc. Btw, it is “murder” that God is quite against! But sadly killing is always part of a fallen, evil word (age) and generation! And this will not change in the world and nations until Christ the Prince of Peace Himself Comes again!

      So indeed I am no pacifist, as it appears you are! But that is fine, those of us who have and will continue to serve and protect the British people and the Monarchy, are always ready! 🙂

  12. I’m intrigued Robert as to how can possibly reconcile the ethical dilemma I have as,

    1/ arguably my mother’s mother’s Norwood family have as arguably our Anglo-Saxon apical ancestor was the last legitimate leading, effective elected English King Harold II Godwinson.

    1.1 HM Crown claims to be Duke of Normandy, almost a millenium ago the illegitimate Duke of Normandy sent an Embassy to Pope Alexander II who gave unto the a Papal ring, Standard of St Peter & Edict for the submission of the English Church thus people.

    1.2 What then makes an illegimate Duke of Normandy legitimate or is HM an imposter?

    2/ As my mother’s father’s FitzGerald, that means we’re descended from Gerald de Windsor whose father built Windsor Castle for Bill the Bastard, William the Conquerer of Britany & England who was given South Welsh Princess Nest whose father was Prince Rhys ap Tewdwr, Sovereign king of the Britons after his great grandfather Hywel Dda (Howell the Good) who codified Welsh Law from whose male line descended our cousins the Anglicised Tudors.

    3/ My mother’s FitzGerald family are descended from the Irish Knights of Kerry & Glin which means through their mother Honora’s father Connor Don of Kerry, Kings of Connacht Sovereignty somehow survived the Desmond Rebellions against their Tudor cousins HenryVIII & Elizabeth as my 4x great grandfather Col Sir Thomas Judkin-FitzGerald married into the Munster M’Cartie Mor, Kings of Munster Sovereignty, my mind naturally has to wonder about that Treaty of Westphalia defining a Euro-centric Sovereignty definition especially living, learning, earning from Larrakia lands known since 1911 as “Darwin” which segueys into asking as you claim to be, lable yourself as another Conservative, what does your mind make of,

    1. Wow mate, you really are hung on your history and “genealogies” aren’t you! Btw, my father was a scientist and physicist, and was (as that generation of science) into Einstein! But he was a certain Roman Catholic Theist also, though always a moderate Irish Roman Catholic. Note I am an Old Earth Creationist myself. And of course Darwin and the Darwinian theory are not really science per se.

      St. Paul says as to “genealogies”…”Nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.” (1 Tim. 1: 4, etc., noting too verses 5-6-7, thru perhaps verse 11). Of course this is some kind of a precursor to Gnosticism no doubt, i.e. “endless genealogies”! But I know your using yours as some kind of benefit. But for myself, I don’t get into such stuff, I am just an old Scots-Irish in lineage, that is now living in America. But if pressed I am now much more Anglo-Irish I suppose? But I am also one of those that sees the term “English” for England historically. But that’s about as far as I gonna go on this!

    1. I’m not even going to try to answer this most poor ad-hoc question! But yes, Jesus was in some sense a faithful Jew, most certainly! (Rom. 9: 3-5 ; 15: 8), i.e. to the Law of God! (Matt. 5: 17-18 (see too verses 19-20). But as God and Man Incarnate, HE served and fulfilled the Law of God – for us!)

      Btw, I would certainly maintain that old Saul/Paul was somewhat a “conservative” as a Roman citizen (Greco-Roman Jewish Hellenist, Gal. 4: 1- 7 / Acts 21: 39 ; 22: 3 ; 28 ; 23: 6 ; 24: 14-15 ; 26: 4-5-6 ; 22-23). (All of Acts chapters 21 thru 26, should be read!)

      I guess you missed what I wrote as to “killing” and murder? And Jesus was no Pacifist! But He died, as an “expiation” for sin and sinners (as to the Law of God, ‘the just for the unjust”..1 Pet. 3: 18).

      1. Fr Robert, There are some people you can have a decent discussion with. Then there are others. Don’t waste your time?

  13. It does rather seem that the thread has gone off-topic somewhat.

    As one might expect from the Daily Mail (generally thought of as a paper for schoolboys written by schoolboys), an invalid point is made very simply as part of an xenophobic campaign the Daily Mail has been running for some time designed to support of the agenda of its repulsive ownership.

    In the 2011 census 59% of the population described themselves as “Christian” down 13% from the previous census in 2001.

    Those self-describing as having “no religion” increased by 10% to 25% of the population.

    There are only 2.7 million persons self-identifying as Muslims. That is just 5% of the population.
    They tend to live in the poorer parts of large cities.

    Since the CofE has many underused churches and Muslims in many areas do not find it easy to build mosques, it was undoubtedly all too easy for the Daily Mail to find contrasting pictures.

    What the Daily Mail was seeking to do was to advance a fear of immigration (and of Islam) in its readership.

    What is true is that far too many of those who self-identify as Christians do not attend church on a weekly basis. If they did, they would surely be more tolerant of those from other faith traditions for we are taught:-

    “16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.” [Lumen Gentium].

    1. @Mourad: Just what we needed, statistics (not in my opinion).. it means little, and its not the general Muslim populace who presses and runs Islam, but the so-called Muslim Brotherhood, etc. And yes, we should certainly fear Islamic immigration, and here we should note Radical Muslims! I know not a popular position, but true none the less. Real Christianity and Islam is never going to be that friendly! Certainly as an old RMC from Gulf War 1, I am not that even minded here! So call me biased, but Christianity and Islam are hardly even!

      Btw, what did you think about that poor British soldier getting his head cut off in your neck of the woods by a Muslim? Hardly a word said by Christians on the blogs!

      Finally, I will always contend that God wants to save all kinds and types of men and people (even Muslims), but certainly NOT ALL mankind! If so, then they would be saved! (John 3: 16, is literally “everyone believing in Him”, Greek). See again Augustine’s “Enchiridion”!

      1. “Statistics…it means little” or in other words, “Don’t confuse me with facts”.

        BTW, the Muslim Brotherhood is primarily an Egyptian based faction. By contrast, the Salafists who have radicalised so many are very largely the remnants of the Regan proxy war in Afghanistan and remain a very dangerous cult indeed.

        As for the recent sad murder you refer to, like the rest of the country I found it shocking and deeply depressing. The perpetrators are in custody and in due course will stand trial. There were some attempts by organisations on the the extreme right to use the murder to stir up intercommunal hatred – fortunately largely unsuccessful. This report for 28th May on the BBC Web site was quite heartening:-

        “A mosque has been praised for serving tea and biscuits to English Defence League supporters after the far-right group arranged a demonstration there. About six people turned up to protest at the mosque in Bull Lane, York, on Sunday and were invited inside to play football with worshippers. More than 100 supporters of the mosque had gone there after learning of the planned EDL protest.

        Archbishop of York Dr John Sentamu said the mosque’s response was “fantastic”. He said: “Tea, biscuits, and football are a great and typically Yorkshire combination when it comes to disarming hostile and extremist views.”

        ‘Proud moment’ – Father Tim Jones, who went to the Bull Lane mosque, which is situated in his parish, said: “I’ve always known they were intelligent and compassionate people and I think this has demonstrated the extent to which they are people of courage – certainly physical courage and also a high degree of moral courage. “I think the world can learn from what happened outside that ramshackle little mosque on Sunday.”

        Hull Road ward councillor Neil Barnes said it had been a “proud moment for York”.

        He said: “I don’t think I’ll ever forget the day that the York Mosque tackled anger and hatred with peace and warmth – and I won’t forget the sight of a Muslim offering a protester tea and biscuits with absolute sincerity.”

        Fears over a demonstration grew after Yorkshire EDL Scarborough Division posted a message on its Facebook page calling for supporters to gather outside the mosque.
        Imam Abid Salik said: “We did have a few people who did come to protest but when they came some of the members of the mosque went over and they engaged in a conversation.
        “Some people went over with cups of tea and biscuits, they were talking for about 30 or 40 minutes and then they came inside, which was a really, really beautiful thing.”

      2. Well we both know “facts” (so-called) can be manipulated, indeed lawyers do it all the time! 😉 And as an RMC officer, I worked closely with Intell, and indeed the Muslim Brotherhood is quite active in many places in the world, even the USA btw (Obama has ties to some degree), even in his staff. He has a few Muslim advisors.

        Tea & biscuits? Sounds like their lulling us to sleep…again! Remember what the Nazis did with the British PM (I can’t even say his name.. Such a shame!). History always does repeat itself, sadly!

  14. I’m sorry Michael that you think discussing with me is a waste of time then patronising Robert by saying so. I asked my questions in good faith. Perhaps this text format doesn’t easily communicate my intent which if that is so, I apologise for that too. Mine was an ad hoc upbringing. This seems like a good forum to ask serious questions, I feel saddened that isn’t appreciated. I’ve a headcold & Samsung Galaxy Tab so writing isn’t easy. I’ll leave all to your owncnervative points of view, lemme know if you’d like to communicate further. I do feel a sense of disappointment because for me, real Christianity is kind, robust, actively interested in sharing, communicating, answering questions Jesus is reputed to have said, “suffer the little children”?

  15. @irishanglican

    I suggest you read the Prime Minister’s statement in the House of Commons today. Inter alia, he said:-

    “Mr Speaker, let me turn to the events in Woolwich. I am sure the whole House will join me in sending our deepest condolences to the friends and family of Drummer Lee Rigby. What happened on the streets of Woolwich shocked and sickened us all. It was a despicable attack on a British soldier who stood for our country and our way of life.

    And it was a betrayal of Islam and of the Muslim communities who give so much to our country. There is nothing in Islam that justifies acts of terror and I welcome the spontaneous condemnation of this attack from Mosques and Muslim community organisations across our country. We will not be cowed by terror.

    Mr Speaker, let’s be clear, the responsibility for this horrific murder lies with those that committed it. But we should do all we can to tackle the poisonous ideology that is perverting young minds. This is not just a job for the security services and the police. It is work for us all.”

    You might also care to remind yourself that Muslims have long served with distinction in HM Forces – Have you any recollection of the numbers of Muslims who gave their lives for King and Country in WW1, WW2 and since then? British Armed Forces Muslim Association.

    BTW this statement was issued by Major MB Fertout – the present Chairman of the AFMA:

    “The appalling murder of one of our number has left British Armed Forces Muslims deeply saddened and our condolences go out to his family at this tragic time. This crime has no place in Islam and Armed Forces Muslim Association members, veterans and their families universally condemn it. The AFMA, and organisations to which it is affiliated are proud to stand in lock step by their brother and sister soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen, in the interests of protecting each other and all that the UK holds dear and for which some, have made the ultimate sacrifice. Muslim personnel do not make any distinction in their affirmation of defending everyone who lives this country and all those who have served and continue to serve today value the ideals that bring the UK closer together as a nation whilst standing against extremism of all forms. We remain steadfast in this duty and the comparisons we draw from peaceful Islam only serve to strengthen this bond between our nation, our faith and our communities.”

    Whether you were writing as a clergyman or as a former weekend soldier, I do not think some of your remarks on Islam do you any credit.

    1. @Mourad: I was hardly ever just a “weekend warrior” (over ten years active service), and I had been jumping (parachute) all the way back to jumping with both the American Army Spl. Forces (at Fort Bragg) and Marine Force Recon, besides our own people. I have a combat jump also. So I have para-jumped for years, until I had a bad landing, and then back surgery, after retirement. And you sir simply are looking at Islam as a layman in every way! I have fought Radical Islam many times, and lived on the soil of Israel! So please don’t speak to me about “credit” (the quality of service), you have no idea of the reality of the ills of Radical Islam, and what our British troops have faced and are facing! And yes, I always speak both as a Christian presbyter (Anglican) and as an old RMC Bootneck!

  16. @ irishanglican:

    I remind you that I was in the regular army rather than a reservist, so I need no lessons from any reservist about what British forces have faced and are facing today. Likewise, as my name may tell you, there are both Muslims and Catholics in my family and I spent much of my working life in the Middle East and North Africa – and now in my retirement a good part of my time is spent working on interfaith initiatives.

    Obviously, since you chose to leave the Catholic Church, I do not expect you to pay much heed to the Church’s teaching in Lumen Gentium – but Christians do have a duty towards our fellow believers in the One God, both Jews and Muslims.

    Much of the rise of what you term “Radical Islam” can be attributed to Western interference in the affairs of the Middle East since the fall of the Ottoman Empire. We in the West are in many respects reaping what our former leaders have sown.

    So, perhaps you would care to explain what positive steps you consider Christians should take to strengthen good relations between Christians and Muslims world wide.

    1. @Mourad: Well it appears we have “fleshed” you out a bit! I have always wondered about your handle, now we know. 🙂 Btw living and teaching in the late 90’s in Israel I came to have, (as well as here in the US now), several Arab and Muslim friends. Though admittedly we don’t talk religion foremost. But they know something of my past. But when we do touch on so-called religion I always present the Biblical Christ of the Gospel, I never shy away from quoting the Bible. And only the true biblical Christ will ever change and save any man/person!

      Just an important note, but I was first, and for many years a so-called regular RMC and not reservist (remember, I am a so-called “mustang”). So you can quit trying to diminish the RMC Reserves (shame on you!) I only transferred to the reserves (back when) when I was seeking more time for my theological study and degrees. But I always maintained my place as a recon and intell officer. In Gulf War 1, we were shoulder to shoulder in deep penetration missions! Note, I have never sought to diminish your Army service! (Whenever that was?)

      Yes, indeed, I have not much place for the whole of the GS from Vatican II! Who knows what it really means? And the “Lumen Gentium” is hardly biblical! Vatican II does have some better theological places, but it is rare today to even hear some of these? I am not at all anti-Catholic, just theologically critical, as I am Protestant & Reformed! Sadly your problem is this constant Catholic Traditionalism…ugh! I guess your not even aware of the shades of “Evangelical” Catholics and Catholicism? But sadly too, there are few Catholics today who really know the real Augustine, but once and awhile I run into a few. But certainly not here in this blog!

      Your statement to seek blame on the West towards Islam, is very telling! The Radical nature of Islam is always just a click away! I am sure many of our EO or Orthodox Brethren from the East could bring light here. But sadly the hate and division in the East runs both ways! And the hate against Israel, the people from whom our Lord became Incarnate is at a fever pitch! Very sad!

      1. irishanglican writes:

        (i) “Your statement to seek blame on the West towards Islam, is very telling! The Radical nature of Islam is always just a click away!

        It is always an uncomfortable process to examine how one’s country has behaved in the past and trace through the consequences – but it’s a necessary part of the process of fashioning remedies for current problems.

        The USA had to go through the process in relation to the slave states and the UK had to do the same in relation to the part we played in the slave trade. The Boers have had to do it in relation to Apartheid. Britain has had to do it in relation to many shameful aspects of our colonial past. Both the UK and the USA need to go through that process in relation to the Middle East.

        In Algeria as one example Jews and Muslims once lived very peaceably side by side. That harmony was wrecked by French Algerian policy between 1830 and independence.

        President Truman’s decision to wreck Mandate Palestine and reject the American Council for Judaism’s Lessing proposals probably ranks as the single biggest major US foreign policy mistake of the last century – at least up to the proxy war with the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

        (ii) ” And the hate against Israel, the people from whom our Lord became Incarnate is at a fever pitch!”

        We have to be careful not to confuse people of Jewish descent and faith with the State of Israel.

        This is one area where the Church does need to examine its conscience. Blood libels for example. Historic Church support for discrimination and pogroms. The Holocaust.

        I still remember being taught about the “wandering jews” as people accursed of God forced forever to wander the Earth because responsible for the death of Christ. I was taught that in the 1950’s by an Irish Catholic friar.

        I am sorry not to see from Irishanglican anything about how we best approach this issue of promotiing interfaith dialogue leading to justice and peace.

        Perhaps this page Missionaries of Africa – White Fathers – Encounter and Dialogue with Muslims might be a starting point.

      2. @Mourad: YOU left out two big aspects: The Bible and Theology! But then you usually always do! But then too we can also blame the French for America as a Nation, right! Oupps oh yeah, that doctrine of God’s sovereign grace and purpose!

        Sorry, there can really be no real “interfaith” with the outright rejection of the doctrine of God’s historical-traditional Theism, Incarnation and His Triune nature!

    1. Of course there is much more to true peace, love & forgiveness than mere human meditation, and we are always spiritually at war in this life! Christ alone, His Person & Work is the true peace of God! (John 14: 27 / Eph. 2: 14 / Col. 1:20).

  17. @irishanglican

    You write: Sorry, there can really be no real “interfaith” with the outright rejection of the doctrine of God’s historical-traditional Theism, Incarnation and His Triune nature!

    There are three great monotheistic religions. Neither Judaism nor Islam has the doctrine of the Trinity and neither regards Jesus as divine. Does that mean that the Jews do not believe in God? Or that Muslims do not? Or, for that matter that Unitarians do not?

    Does that mean that the very many Councils of Muslims, Christians and Jews in England and similar bodies throughout the world cannot engage in productive dialogue? That we cannot reach much common understanding as to what an infinitely just, infinitely merciful Deity requires of us in terms of our relations one with the other?

    I know not what is afflicting you, but it might be wise to have it seen to.

    1. Here is a piece posted off my own blog. I do NOT consider Islam to be properly Monotheistic, nor their use of the OT historically and theologically proper either!

      Is Allah Identical to the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ? (EM Caner)

      Quoting for The Apologetics Study Bible: “This is a difficult question, especially in the English language. Linguistically, anyone who uses the term “God” is basically saying the same thing: They are referring to the uncreated Creator of the universe. In this fashion, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, and all others are referring to the Lord of the universe when they use the term “God”.

      With regard to Islam, the similarities of Allah and Jehovah are greater for two reasons: (1) Islam embraces monotheism, which means “one God”, just like Christianity and Judaism, and (2) Muhammad used many of the people cited in the Bible when he created the Quran, such as Noah (Surah 6: 84), Jacob (Surah 2: 132), and Jesus (Surah 3: 45-47).

      The similarities end there however. Think of Islam as a form of “medieval Mormonism.” Like Mormonism, Islam is based on the faulty premise that the Bible’s description of God and Jesus Christ is incorrect. Like Mormonism, Islam teaches that both Christianity and Judaism are false religions, and that Islam through the Quran is the only true faith.

      Ultimately, this is not an issue of vocabulary; it is an issue of definition. The Allah of the Quran is described and defined in a way that clearly shows Muhammad was not presenting the same God. The God of Islam is remote, and not intimate (Surah 112). Allah does not have a son (Surah 2: 116), is not a Trinity (Surah 5: 72), and does not love unconditionally (Surah 8: 53). In Islam, Jesus is simply a prophet, and emphatically is not the Son of God (Surah 5: 72), and the angel Gabriel is the Holy Spirit (Surah 2: 193).

      Remember, when Muhammad was alive (A.D. 570-632), the Bible was already in its complete canonical form. This is not an issue of ignorance, Muhammad, living just over 700 miles south of Jerusalem, knew the Bible and rejected it. Instead, he created a system that changed the nature and attributes of God, but still used the name.

      Indeed, these difference cover the entire theology of Christianity. In Islam, there are “angels” that are created from fire (called “jinn”, Surah 72), a Tree of Zaqqum in hell (Surah 3: 62-67), virgin servants in heaven (Surah 4:57). In fact, even the creation in Islam is corrupted. In Islam, Satan’s fall was due to his unwillingness to bow to Adam (Surah 2: 34).

      In summation, one can state it thus: Islam rejects the fatherheart of God. The divinity of the Son, and the person of the Holy Spirit. You cannot change the nature of the God of the Bible without changing the “god” you are presenting. It is not the same God.” (Ergun Mehmet Caner, Liberty Theological Seminary ; Quoted from The Apologetics Study Bible, p. 1754 – Holman, 2007)

      1. Concerning true Christianity, Judeo-Christianity is surely based upon the Judeo OT doctrine of God! (Rom. 15: 8, etc.) Sadly National Israel rejects their Messiah right now, but the day will come when the Remnant according to God’s Election of Grace (Rom.11: 5 ; 26- 29), will certainly come to Christ! But this will come at the eschatological End of time, just before and as the Second Coming of Christ, itself! (Zech. 14: 1-4, etc.)

      2. And btw, my “affection” would be “Truth”, both biblical & theological, as a Reformed Christian within the Reformed Divinity, as to the great Doctrine of God In Christ! (Again the Ecclesia semper reformada).

      3. @irishanglican

        I have already drawn your attention to the Catholic Dogmatic Constitution “Lumen Gentium” and, of course you shrugged off that teaching which is authoritative for the majority of Christians.

        Your post timed at 3.52 below strikes me as being very much a dispensationalist interpretation of scripture so it is entirely unsurprising that in this post you have cited a “fake ex-Muslim” who was briefly Dean of one of the late and unlamented Jerry Faldwell’s establishments but who was required to resign as Dean even from there after it was demonstrated that his claimed curriculum vitae in his tendentious but lucrative potboiler “Unveiling Islam” was substantially inaccurate.

        I’ve always thought that it was fear of coming Catholic Emancipation that drove John Nelson Darby to invent the pre-tribulation Rapture around 1830. Perhaps it is also your dislike of Catholic doctrine which drives you to the Baptists, the Pentecostals and the rapture-ready of the US bible belt?

        Certainly, if one is focusing on “the eschatological End of time” there must be little point in worrying about the divisions which plague the Christians, let alone relations between Jews, Christians and Muslims.

      4. @Mourad: When you cannot attack the issue, then you attack the man, this is certainly ad hominem!

        I also, I am NOT Pre-Trib. but Post on the so-called “Rapture”. But, yes I am a moderate dispensationalist somewhat, or I should say, a PD…Progressive Dispensationalist.

        I won’t even address your last paragraph, that’s how bad the ad hoc statement was! So much of your statements border on the ad hom, and certainly one’s prejudice!

  18. Interesting to see that this thread has continued. It shows how much complexity is really involved.

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