Church

An Appeal from the Continuing Anglican Churches to the ACNA and Associated Churches

Which I see out on The Continuum Blog:

The Continuing Anglican Church movement began with the Congress of Saint Louis in 1977.  The Anglican Church in North America was born in 2010.  Between these two ecclesial movements there are points of contact, but there also is a great gulf fixed.

In regard to points of contact, both of the entities concerned are movements composed of a number of imperfectly united ecclesial jurisdictions rather than perfectly united dioceses or Churches.  Both understand themselves to be Anglican and to relate in positive ways to a common history and shared theological and cultural influences.  Both understand themselves to have left former Church homes as an act of fidelity to the teaching of Scripture and in the face of grave aberrations in the Episcopal Church and Anglican Communion.  Both are challenged by the need to present the gospel in compelling and attractive ways to an increasingly secular and indifferent Western society.

The gulf between us concerns mostly the changes accepted in the Episcopal Church (and the Canadian Church) between the mid-1970s and 2010.  Those of us who left the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada in the 1970s did so due to the adoption in those years of the ordination of women to the priesthood by General Convention (1976) and General Synod (1975).  More generally, in the roughly 30 years between the Congress of Saint Louis and ACNA’s formation, the people who eventually formed ACNA lived in ecclesial bodies which increasingly abandoned elements of classical Anglicanism.  The precipitating cause of the founding of the ACNA was TEC’s abandonment of orthodox Christian teaching concerning homosexuality.  But prior to 2010 many of those now in ACNA accepted liturgies and prayer books with few connections to classical Anglican worship and accepted female deacons, priests, and bishops contrary to the mind of all Anglicans prior to the mid-20th century.

One of our number, in an earlier letter to Archbishop Duncan of ACNA, wrote in regard to these matters as follows:

The notion that women can receive the sacrament of Holy Orders in any of its three parts constitutes, in our view, a revolutionary and false claim:  a claim false in itself; a claim destructive of the common ministry that once united Anglicans; and, finally, a claim productive of an even broader and worse consequence.  That worse consequence is the claim that Anglicans have authority to alter important matters of faith and order against a clear consensus in the central tradition of Catholic and Orthodox Christendom.  Once such a claim is made it may be pressed into service to alter any matter of faith or morals.  The revolution devours its children.  Many of the clergy represented at GAFCON and now joining the ACNA seem to us to accept the flawed premise and its revolutionary claim in one matter while seeking to resist the application of the premise in the matter of homosexuality.  This position seems to us to be internally inconsistent and impossible to sustain successfully over time.

All Continuing Anglicans accept this analysis.  We note that ACNA has not abandoned the putative ordination of women and that this issue deeply divides the dioceses which compose ACNA.

While we recognize that the Churches through history and today are free to adopt a variety of liturgical forms, as they are not free to accept the ordination of women, yet we also agree that any sound Anglican body today needs to relate more positively to the classical Books of Common Prayer than is the case in many ACNA dioceses.

Many in ACNA effectively accept elements of the revolution since the 1970s.  If orthodox Anglicanism in North America is again to unite, then it can only do so on the basis of the pre-1976 state of the Church, without women clergy and with classically Anglican liturgies.

We recognize that the Continuing Church has failed to present a united front, has failed to grow as we should, and in general has failed to present an attractive alternative to the growing heresy and absurdity of the Episcopal Church.  However, we also note that against furious opposition, and often against obstacles set up by those who later formed ACNA, we have built hundreds of congregations in North America, many of which are thriving.  We have established works of mercy, publications ministries, and international missions, and we have trained and ordained a new generation of able clergy.

The Continuing Churches are said to be riven by constant conflicts and to be increasingly divided.  This is not true.  Those of us who are undersigned below represent the great bulk of the Continuing Church.  We have among ourselves cordial relations.  We cooperate on many levels and have at least as great a level of communion as that which exists amongst the disparate groups of ACNA.  Our tendency is towards greater unity and cooperation, whereas we observe within ACNA a tendency, just beneath the surface, to divide along the fault line we have identified above (between many in ACNA and classical Anglicanism).  We have no wish to deny or to minimize our own failures or divisions.  But our divisions are largely matters amenable to improvement.  The divisions facing ACNA are fundamental and essential.

We call upon ACNA to heed our call to return to your classical Anglican roots.  We commend to your prayerful attention the Affirmation of Saint Louis, which we firmly believe provides a sound basis for a renewed and fulfilled Anglicanism on our continent.  We urge you to heed the call of Metropolitan Jonah, whose concerns we share.  Anglicanism in North America cannot be both united and orthodox on a partially revolutionized basis.  We call upon you to repudiate firmly any claim to alter doctrine or order against the consensus of the Catholic and Orthodox world.  We call upon you to embrace the classical Prayer Book tradition.  The 30 years between our formation in 1977 and yours in 2010 were years of sharp decline in TEC numbers and of growing aberrations in all areas of Church life.  We call upon you to look upon all the works of those years with a much more critical eye, and to join us in returning to the doctrine, worship, and orders that preceded the intervening decades.

Yours in Christ,

The Right Reverend Paul Hewett, SSC
Diocese of the Holy Cross

The Most Reverend Walter Grundorf
Anglican Province of America

The Most Reverend Brian Marsh
Anglican Church in America

The Most Reverend Mark Haverland
Anglican Catholic Church

The Most Reverend Peter D. Robinson
United Episcopal Church of North America

____________________________________________________________

Wikipedia has more on the ACNA here for people like me who live not in America and can get quite confused by all these Anglican divisions, including:

The ACNA has both Anglo-Catholic and evangelical members and is considered to be more theologically conservative than the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada.

The Church allows dioceses to decide if they will or will not ordain women as priests, although it does not permit women to become bishops…

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Church

The Traditional Anglican Church of Canada Take on the Situation in Canada

In Virtue Online:

The Traditional Anglican Church of Canada, formed and incorporated in 2010 after the Ordinariate controversy divided the Anglican Catholic Church of Canada, has linked itself as a “missionary district” with the Anglican Catholic Church Original Province worldwide, while maintaining links as well with the Anglican Province of Christ the King. The Rev. Father Robert Mansfield of St John’s, Parry Sound, Ontario, convener of the synod, will serve as Vicar- General.

The province was taken at the young church’s initial synod, held October 23-25 at Queen of Apostles Renewal Centre in Mississauga near Toronto, Canada, ironically the location where an attempt was made earlier to form an Ordinariate in Canada.

A highlight of this gathering was the ordination of The Reverend George Betsos to the Sacred Order of Deacons by Archbishop James Provence of the APCK, to serve as Assistant Curate in Saint Mark’s Parish, Victoria, British Columbia. Betsos holds the Master of Divinity degree from the University of Toronto and a degree in psychotherapy. He will join the Victoria congregation later this year.

Archbishop Mark Haverland gave the address and charge to the ordinand. This was the third ordination to the diaconate this year for Canadian traditionalists: the others were of The Rev. Steven Beyer of Holy Trinity & St Jude, Thunder Bay, and The Rev. Jonathan Carrothers of St Mark’s, Victoria.

Archbishop Mark Haverland (ACCOP) presided at the meeting, which approved the “missionary” status of the Traditional Anglican Church of Canada unanimously. Thus the original eight parishes will be affiliated with 250 ACCOP parishes in the U.S., U.K., India, Africa, and Asia. The connection between St Mark’s in Victoria and the APCK, formed before the other parishes existed or had withdrawn from the ACCC, has the approval of Archbishop Haverland, who strongly supported the parish’s wish to continue this connection whilst maintaining full participation in the Canada-wide organisation. The two archbishops presented a united front and spoke movingly to the assembled clergy and lay leaders.

The theme of the synod was “Pastoral Availability and Organisational Stability,” and speakers from each of the parish described the efforts being made to implement the aims of the Traditional Anglican Church. A series of addresses on the theme given by The Rev. Father Stanley Sinclair of Victoria will be published.

Mrs. Marie Tetlow was chosen as secretary by acclamation. The five-member elected executive council of the TACC will remain in place, but a treasurer and a chancellor must be found. Dr Millo Shaw of Thunder Bay, who drafted the Constitution, asked to be relieved as Chancellor because of the pressure of work.

The Anglican Catholic Church in the U.S. was formed in 1978 as the aftermath of the Congress of St Louis a year before, which brought together thousands of disaffected traditional Anglicans, who wanted to maintain their tradition unimpaired by the changes made in the American and Canadian churches, replacing the Prayer Book with contemporary rites that diminished orthodoxy, and approving the ordination of women; although other issues were also involved. ACCOP and ACPK were created as the outcome of the “Affirmation of St Louis.”

The Anglican Catholic Church of Canada began under Archbishop Robert Morse of APCK, who had taken the Victoria congregation founded by former bishop Peter Wilkinson [St Athanasius, later St John the Evangelist] under its wing prior to the formation of the Canadian body. At a 2010 synod near Vancouver the ACCC voted to join in an Ordinariate, but subsequently the parishes in Victoria and Halifax withdrew, and other parishes had a long period of uncertainty. Some have still not made a decision about their future affiliation. The Church of the Resurrection, Walkerville [Windsor], ON, under The Rev. Fr. James Chantler, voted to join the ACCOP prior to this development.

The Traditional Anglican Communion was formed as an international body in 1991, under Archbishop Hepworth, who after much controversy intervening is now a Roman Catholic layman. He gave the impression on a swing round the international TAC circuit that the church was seeking uniate status.

The appeal to the Vatican had actually been made by Evangelical bishops in the Church of England to the Vatican. Given the very cordial interaction through the Anglican Roman Catholic International Commission, it was thought that a way might be found to establish a “uniate” relationship. In 2005 the proposed terms were presented to the English bishops as well as to TAC bishops at a meeting in Washington, DC, with Cardinal Wuerl.

At that time unknown to the rank and file membership, most of the bishops of the Traditional Anglican Communion had signed the Catechism of the Catholic Church at a meeting in Portsmouth, England in 2007. [This was a tacit approval of papal infallibility, transubstantiation, and Marian dogmas adopted by Rome in the 19th and 20th centuries, along with the Catholic faith of the “undivided church” prior to the Great Schism.]

The publication of Anglicanorum Coetibus in 2009 made Anglican Catholics in Canada aware that under its terms the eligible clergy must be re-ordained and re-trained, and laity would undergo some rite, either Confirmation or Chrismation, at the hands of a Roman bishop.

When the Vatican document was released the now former Archbishop John Hepworth and other bishops denied that it meant the necessity of becoming Roman Catholic [“we will be united, not absorbed”], although subsequent events showed that this was indeed expected. In Canada two out of three ACCC bishops have now been laicised, although they are seeking Roman Catholic ordination, along with several ACCC clergy. Bishop Craig Botterill of Halifax, Nova Scotia, is the remaining ordinary of the ACCC.

So far there is no Ordinariate in Canada, but “fellowships” in Ottawa and Victoria, related to the “Anglican Use” and Ordinariate parishes in the U.S. One lone Anglican parish, historic St John the Evangelist, Calgary, has joined the “Anglican Use” group. At the moment these congregations have no clergy of their own but rely on regular R.C. clergy for ministrations. This of course reflects the very limited interest expressed in the Ordinariate proposal by Anglicans in the U.K., Australia, India and Africa.

Squabbling half-truths. A poor, yet typical, Virtue post.

 

Church

The Continuing Anglican Church in Australia (CACA)

In via a comment here.

There is an independent jurisdiction in Australia titled “The Continuing Anglican Church in Australia” (CACA). This jurisdiction is awaiting the consecration of its first Bishop. The clergy of the CACA are formermembers of the ACCA. Those clergy and laity of the ACCA (TAC) who do not intend to enter an Ordinariate would do well to consider joining the CACA.They would be most welcome.

The above raises more questions than answers.

  • Consecrated? Who and by who? What of the validity of orders (if any, and if that still matters).
  • Why form yet another Continuing body? There is a TAC still. Splits and splinters lead only to more splits and splinters.
  • With whom are they affiliated?
  • Is the above a work of the Holy Spirit or of man?

UPDATE:

I’ve searched the web and the only mention of this group (or use of name) can be linked to Fr Brian Tee. I do not know (need I repeat myself? I do not know) if the above comment and link are one and the same group:

Until October 2010 our parish was part of, and was affiliated with, The Anglican Catholic Church in Australia. As a result of that church deciding to enter an Ordinariate, if and when one is established for Australia, our parish withdrew from the church as we do not wish to become Roman Catholics.

In January 2011 we registered an incorporated association, Synod of The Continuing Anglican Church in Australia (WA) Inc. Our name says it all: we are a “continuing” Anglican Church, not a new church, but an ancient Church who can trace her roots back to the times of the Apostles. As Archbishop Geoffrey Fisher of Canterbury said, “We only possess the Catholic doctrine of the Catholic Church, enshrined in the Catholic Creeds, and those Creeds we hold without addition or diminution.”

Our very existence proves how wrong those were who said that there could not be such a thing as a “continuing” Continuing Anglican Church!

While we do believe that it is the Will of Jesus that all Christians should be one, we do not believe that this necessarily means that all Christians have to be Roman Catholics. We cannot, in conscience, believe certain dogmas held by the Roman Catholic Church. That being the case, we do not believe that it is the Will of the Holy Spirit that we should compromise our consciences.

It has been said that Fr Brian has “created” a “newly constituted church”. He’s not quite sure how preaching and teaching good old fashioned orthodox Anglicanism can be considered to be the creation of a new church.

He writes on the reasons for his resignation from the ACCA – (TAC) here and signs off:

The Revd Fr Brian Tee of The Continuing Anglican Church in Australia (formerly a priest in the Anglican Catholic Church in Australia)

 

So is he soon the be the Bishop?

I can but pray that he and his people be reconciled with the TAC and function in a post-Hepworthian Church.

 

Church

I Wish I Had Known It Would Be Like This!

Deborah Gyapong, in a painfully honest post:

“I wish I had known it would be like this!” That’s what a wrote last April to someone who also made this similarly arduous journey into the Catholic Church as part of the Anglican Catholic Church of Canada. I wish I had known how it was going to be when we were actually received into the Catholic Church because this might have spared me such disappointment and anguish over the previous year. As most of you know from my complaints and dismay expressed publicly from time to time, I sure felt as if Cardinal Kasper’s words regarding the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC), “the train has already left the station” applied to us, that we were the chopped liver of Ordinariate applicants, treated like second class citizens, that really only those from the Canterbury Communion need apply and so on.

Yes, I hoped for a much more corporate approach to our reception than the parish by parish model that in effect disintegrated the ecclesial bonds we had enjoyed in the Anglican Catholic Church of Canada and forced us to walk away from considerable assets for a poor group like ourselves in terms of wills and trusts. I still think that Rome could have handled this aspect better and maybe we would not have lost so many people.

But it is what it is. And while we are so much smaller, a remnant of the 700 Canadian communicants there were when we first reported our numbers to the Catholic Church, but those who remain are more united, more bonded. As my grandfather always used to say, “Everything always works out for the best.” Who knows. Maybe some of the people we lost will come back eventually. I hope so.

So what I am I trying to say here?

I really want to avoid anything that is going to look preachy in smugly telling people to be patient and not fret. I used to get annoyed from time to time back in the day at pep talk posts that seemed to be saying my attitude was the problem when all I saw was alarming and hurtful and it felt like I was being admonished to close my eyes to injustice.

Okay.

Things did not work out the way I expected them to and adjusting my expectations and accepting the disappointment was difficult. Experiencing the disintegration of the Traditional Anglican Communion was awful. Watching Archbishop John Hepworth’s trials I found agonizing.

I reached a point where I was really wondering if I could become Catholic. All I could see were the Church’s flaws. I wanted to flee to a simpler, more direct personal relationship with Jesus Christ like I’d experienced as an evangelical.

But once our bishops and clergy decided to join the Catholic Church with no conditions, without a nulla osta in sight, things suddenly changed for us. The welcome and generosity we have experienced has been amazing. The sense of constant spiritual attack also lifted. It’s been a honeymoon of grace since last January when the request was made to come in in April.

The generosity comes not only from our local bishops but also from the Ordinariate.

We in Canada have had a good experience of our Ordinary Msgr. Jeffrey Steenson and have found him accessible and attentive to our concerns.

I wonder, though, whether in the United States there is a disappointment concerning the Anglican Use parishes, particularly Our Lady of the Atonement (OLA), and their apparent lack of a role in the new Ordinariate.

I don’t think I’m the only one who envisioned the Anglican Use parishes being the spine of the U.S. Ordinariate, providing it with an initial stability and income that no other country would have. So, I can understand there might be some dismay that OLA, the first and most successful Anglican Use parish, is not part of it, even if we do not know all the reasons behind its withdrawal.

This morning, I saw a comment on another blog that indicated some Traditional Anglican Communion parishes in the United States feel like they and their clergy are being left on the platform as the Ordinariate train rolls by.

One thing that wise correspondent told me in response to my “I wish I had known that it would be like this” was something to the effect that maybe, in some mysterious way, the suffering and anguish contributed to the good result we are experiencing now.

“It changed you, no?”

Well, it did force me to pray. Suffering is like that. But it was risky because I was so tempted to bitterness, which is not my usual besetting sin. It was like getting hit with a craving for gambling, which I am so not interested in!

Given how bleak things looked even a year ago for us, I wonder what things will look like two years from now for those in the United States who are feeling left out or who have concerns now about how things are taking shape. Maybe Our Lady of the Atonement, will be safely and happily part of the Ordinariate and those communities that feel left behind at the station will have been gathered in. We can pray for that result.

I ask, too, that if you comment about disappointments or concerns, that you take a measured tone. There is much going on in the Ordinariate that is behind the scenes but progress is being made. Maybe not on our timetable or unfolding as we expected, but it will, we can all hope and pray, work out for the best.

Meanwhile, we can expect that there will be lots of turbulence and spiritual warfare attacking any moves towards greater Christian unity. It used to help me when I recognized that some of what I was feeling was spiritual attack. The other thing that helped was to know that everything that was happening was still under God’s watchful eye and Providence. Jesus was allowing this to happen and was I going to kick against Him?

So, I hope those who are outside and wondering why things are not going faster or more smoothly will know that I am with you in your suffering. This kind of travailing is compared to labor pains for a reason. But there are many reasons for hope and thanksgiving, too.

I hope someday you too will be saying like I am now, “I wish I had known it would be like this!”

 

Church

Continuing Church Experience in Canada and South Africa

Wrote (Fr) Michael Shier:

WHAT CAN I TELL you from the Pacific Rim? We had a great Christmas, zipping from church to church, staying with different families. We finally got to open our presents on Holy Innocents day. It sounds wonderfully energetic, and it was. However, it’s easy to get over inflated. We are still a skeletal existence. There are still not enough pieces of the jigsaw on the table to persuade `impaired’ Anglican stragglers of our viability. The truth is that Continuing churches have to bide their time. We sow seed etc. It’s an honourable calling. The new ice age of ‘impaired’ Anglicanism will crack one day. The ice is enormously thick. But it won’t resist African volatility.

In 1992 the ordination of women went through in South Africa. In all the resulting confusion some of our people looked to England for leadership. A `divine’ of some venerability came to address them. The meetings were fraught, turbulent and inconclusive. In desperation, someone asked about the continuing churches. Our eminence said, by way of discouragement, that continuing Churchmen were `pathetic people who worship in garages’

That was the breaking point for Traditionalists in South Africa. From now on the leadership of England was in doubt. For we all know that the basic instruction is `Keep the Faith’. You just do it. Wherever you are. This is obvious to Africans missionised by Mirfield and Cowley fathers.

So our people turned to Bishop Mercer, a Mirfield father and their one time neighbour in Zimbabwe. Bishop Mercer, running a fragile church that spans Canada. the second largest country in the world, provided immediate help. and still does. The largest African parish [was] run by Fr Ball, a Canadian priest.

But let us go back. The people of this parish had fallen foul of their Bishop in about 1987. They had refused to accept the ministrations of the charismatic priest who bad been foisted upon them despite repeated appeals to the Bishop to provide someone with a sense of church order. As a result of the impasse there were no baptisms, confirmations, masses or authorised burials for 5 years. But they would not be intimidated.

Now, with a treasurer who runs a chain of liquor stores, a warden known as Big Bertha, a people addicted both to partying and the Catholic religion, they have built our first church in South Africa. On Nov 2, 1997, this church, built to seat 350 people, was inundated with over 700 at the first mass.

And just in case the 12 other outlets in S. Africa be thought to be pathetic, take note that the next church is planned for Johannesburg.

The sheer vitality of it all provides an answer to the question that has been on my mind for the last few years. Are we just peddling some cranky form of fin de siecle `Englishness’ ?

Now that Anglicanism has surrendered its catholicity, is `Englishness’ all that is left? I can remember feeling, rather pathetically, when I arrived in Vancouver that whatever happens ‘there is some corner in a foreign field which is for ever’ Anglican. Well, there is more to all this than some pathetic form of sentimentality. Sentimentality does not win converts. Sentimentality has no vitality. Sentimentality does not produce a superb new version of the Liturgy in Afrikaans.

Yes, there are lots of ghettos. Where else do you start? The Chief Rabbi made an apposite comment in his response to ‘Faith in the City’. No one in their right mind intends to stay in the ghetto. You must have the guts to transform it or to work your way out of it.

But it is the fact that anything existed at all that has now led the Anglicans of the Torres Strait Islands to petition for membership of the Traditional Anglican Communion. My Bishop rang one night to say that Bishop Haley was at that moment hearing the confessions of 17 priests and 10 deacons prior to their admission to the Traditional Anglican Communion. A later report told us that the ensuing dancing went on till midnight. Sounds like the catholic religion to me.

What have they done? They have done precisely what we were encouraged to do while I was still in England – made an exodus. This, of course. is more difficult than it sounds. Even if you can get out, you then have to face the wilderness. And the wilderness is hardly an ideal world. Those who would have joined you if it was an ideal world tell you that the wilderness is not for then. `No buildings, Father, no money and we are too old to start again’

Well tough. More important than all this is the fact that the wilderness is the place of judgement. The Israelites were called into the wilderness, into exile into the place of separation. That is where life under Cod properly is. Judgement begins at the house of God. If we are not living under judgement, we are not living the Christian life. So however difficult it may be and however much we may be reviled, that is just too bad.

At least, in the wilderness you are not living on enemy territory. You do not feel the duress of alien power. The fear of the Bishop’s guillotine hanging over one’s pension, the pressure to write essays expressing opinions one disagrees with and radical lack of confidence in what is going on.

The question remains: “How happeneth it, Israel. that thou art in thine enemies’ land, that thou art waxen old in a strange country?” [Baruch 3:10]

Now there is more on (Fr) Michael Shier and his group in Canada here.

HT:  Charles Coulombe

 

 

Church

The ACC and APCK Take Over ACCC (TAC) Parishes in Joint Venture

Opportunistic, but Continuing Anglicanism doing what it always seems to do, I suppose. Peter Karl T. Perkins brings us:

… a real shock

http://www.traditionalanglican.ca/

And more:

There now appears to be a four-way split, not counting those who may have simply slipped off to independent congregations (if any, or if many).  In B.C., Canon Sinclair (now called ‘Fr. Stan’) in Victoria and Fr. Peter Sandercock at Nanaimo, both on Vancouver Island, are part of the Anglican Province of Christ the King, under Abp. Provence.  The group at Victoria celebrates its services at St. Mark Church, which happens to be the Orangemen’s Hall.  The Orangemen are sort of Freemasons who prefer violence, no?

Former TAC groups in Ontario and the Mainland of B.C. are now part of the Anglican-Catholic Church, Original Province, under Abp. Haverland.  Fr. David Marriott is their priest for Halfmoon Bay and Pitt Meadows, B.C.  In Ontario, they have groups at Belleville, Chapleau (former TAC group before its priest died), Ottawa, Parry Sound and Thunder Bay.  The priests are Frs. James Gibbons, Peter Jardine, Robert Mansfield, Frank Moore, and James Chantler. Some or all of these were once TAC priests.  The names are all familiar to me.

There is confusion even on the local level.  For instance, Holy Cross Parish at Nanaimo is already renamed St. Athanasius on its own website.

It would appear that the two Provinces are about to merge…

It would appear that Haverland and Provence have scooped up the TAC in Ontario.  In the Vancouver area and the Victoria area, there are now groups staying in the TAC, going to Haverland-Provence and going with the Ordinariate. I joke about Anglicans worshipping in callboxes but you should see their ‘chapel’ at Halfmoon Bay.  It does indeed appear to be about thrice the size of a telephone booth.  It is a potent symbol of the future of the TAC, as is worship in fuernal homes.

With Bishop Peter Wilkinson and Bishop Carl Reid leading their flock to the safe home that is the Ordinariate this Sunday coming, I believe that leaves only Bishop Craig Botterill for the ACCC (TAC), with the ACC and APCK picking off of the remnant, seemingly at will.

Some may go as far as calling it: Good old fashion sheep-stealing.

Archbishop Mark Haverland (ACC) and Archbishop James Provence (APCK)